A bit off topic perhaps but I'm trying to find links to put a raging debate to bed. My aging Benz mechanic who spent years working for Mercedes in Germany has for some years expressed his conviction that after the late eighties he won't touch any 300Es since as he says it "That's when Chrysler started making them". He's even pointed out to me how early 300E rear end suspension was downgraded to very light control arms in the rear compared to eariler 80s 300Es. That parts in general weren't as reliable as the earlier MBs and paint, quality of metal etc went downhill as well.

Since then whenever I raise this issue debate follows and being unable to find any links that point to anything the "old boy" is on about I'm wondering if he knows something we don't or does he have his wires crossed altogether?


thanks in advance.

BB

Sounds like a case of a QUACKY CANADIAN if you ask me.

Plus Chrysler didn't merge with Daimler-Benz until 1998, nothing really to fact check here.

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1991 300E - 212K and rising fast...

I don't think your mechanic's argument has any validity. The W124 was a well made car from the start until the end of production in 1995. I've sat and driven in a late W124 and they feel as every bit as solid as a early W124. I don't think the decline in engineering and material quality came so early. It was more of a gradual transition starting in the late 1990s.

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1989 300CE

I think he uses "Chrysler" as a generally disparaging term, not literally.
I think he's really old school and can't accept that like everyone else, the cars had to become more energy efficient and ecologically sound. All the manufacturers, esp in the US had a terrible time period for paint, trying to make the painting process meet EPA standards. Things had to become lighter, the whole car had to become lighter to meet fuel standards and people wouldn't have continued buying them if they were getting 15 mpg when the competition got 25 or 30. EVEN if they were built like a tank.
A good thread to insert a favorite song line of mine, it's from Billy Joel's "Keeping The Faith"; The good old days weren't always good and tomorrow's not as bad as it seems.

Gilly

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The ONLY connection between Chrysler and Daimler before 98 was the occasional usage of specific automatic climate control components. Isn't it funny that these automatic climate controls were CLEARLY the worst climate control systems ever put an an MB. In fact, they might be the worst automatic climate control systems ever put on an AUTOMOBILE!

The 124 chassis design and development was probably one of the most over engineered vehicles built by Mercedes.

I've owned a C124 since new when it was introduced in 1988.
Also own a 1994 A124.

No difference in quality from the earliest to the last car built.

No connection to Chrysler in design, specification or parts.

Mercedes quality started to diminish in the late 90's
The 202's and 140's along with the 129's were still decent builds.

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1971 280SL ROADSTER
1988 300CE TWIN TURBO WIDEBODY
1994 E320 CABRIOLET
1999 C43 AMG
2005 G55K AMG
2008 CLK63 AMG BLACK SERIES

I agree with all above. As an Engineer, who worked on Mercedes projects with Mercedes' Engineers, my experience is a bit different.

The 124, 201, early 140s, and R129 were the last IMO of the Engineers' cars. Marketing decided much more after this point.

Mercedes-Benz never merged with Chrysler, that was how it was sold to us here in America. Daimler-Benz bought Chrysler, lost their asses and their repution, built some Chrysler cars using old W210 suspension parts, and sold Chrysler at a garage-sale. Bad move that purchase.

The 124 is IMO the best-built and Engineered mid-size car ever, was my favorite as an Engineer and as an owner of many. The early are great cars, later ones better refined and appointed, no difference in quality. The chassis IIRC is 30% high-tensile steel, I don't believe that any other manufacturer has ever bothered to spend the money to create a car with the natural frequency of the W124, it was however benchmarked by every car manufacturer in the world.

Long live the Mercedes 124.

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Gone to the dark side

- Jeff

Actually it was Lexus. Indirectly, of course.

No W212 diesels in the USA yet, but I can say without hesitation that there is NOTHING about the W124 that even comes close to the W211. The latter is a fantastically better car.

Have owned W123, W124 (2), W210, and W211.

I'm relatively certain most W124 owners would be blown away even by a W210 with the V6 and--especially--the five-speed transmission. Smoother in all ways than the iron-engined W124s and no headgasket leaks, either. Even our diesel is a rocketship compared to a dog 300E, and 2700 highway rpms (V6) or 2100 highway rpms (OM648) sure is nicer than 3400.

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Kent Christensen
Albuquerque
'07 GL320CDI, '10 CL550. '01 Porsche Boxster
Two BMW motorcycles

Yes, my younger brother was Product Planner, All New Vehicles, for Lexus at that time. I remember it well, how successful they were at bringing over a Japanese-market Toyota and re-branding. Good show.

The 211(and even the 210) is more refined, more powerful, and definately nicer to drive. I don't agree that it is as well engineered however, too much emphasis on FEM/CAD/etc. to minimize weight, cost, and material. Still very good cars, just didn't have the longevity built in that the earlier models had.

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Gone to the dark side

- Jeff

I had the opportunity to speak to a W211 owner while at the local dealership a couple of months back. I believe the car in question was either a 2004 or 2005 E320 which he had purchased new. He went on to tell me that the car has spent a lot of time in the shop for various electrical gremlins including the dreaded SBC system. The car had racked up closed to 170,000 km since he drove it long distances for business. He told me he had preferred his former 1992 300E for its mechanical and electrical simplicity and reliability.

I guess we can agree that the newer cars will be better is aspects of safety, technology and refinement, but these things do not replace the high standard engineering mindset that the older cars were built upon. To say that a newer Benz is a fantastically better car is only true in a few aspects.

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1989 300CE

This is far closer to the truth than just about anything else said here. Not discounting it, mind you, just saying that some changes are wrought by external influences.

Infiniti and Acura arrived in 1987. Their products, while worthwhile didn't quite compete with the German luxury marques. The arrival of the Lexus LS400 is what signalled a wholesale shift in the mindset of the American luxury car buyer.

Not the lesser ES250, but the LS400. To be honest, the car was just about equal with the Mercedes and BMW competition, while quieter, cheaper, more fuel efficient and better appointed. This called into question the ethos of luxury cars and their pricing.

But it wasn't just the car, it was also the dealership experience; complimentary coffee and pastries, car wash with all servicing, loaner car for all repairs, complimentary shuttle for servicing etc etc etc. At a time when Mercedes dealer experience was insular at best, if not insulting. Witness the handling of the wiring harness fiasco on the W124 vs Lexus recalling 8000 cars based on 2 complaints just after the cars debut.

You guys should really read the wikipedia page on the LS400.

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'O=00=O'
bmw 2002.
long live the legend

Small correction, as of 2010 it is not marketing any more, it is Lawyers and Unions - see the Toyota issues.

Interesting part: all Toyota model under acceleration recalls are using accelerator by-wire and ARE affected by cell phones. The first mass-prod car with accelerator-by-wire is ... 1994-1995 W124.

IMHO the best reliability/engineered car ever is 1992 W124 with full 4sp auto and M103 engine, even if it is 2.6

Try again VW/Audi introduced the TDI in 1989. But I guess we didn't specify gas or diesel.

-J

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1991 350SDL. 230,000 miles (new motor @ 150,000). Blown head gasket

Tesla Model 3. 205,000 miles. Been to 48 states!
Past: A fleet of VW TDIs.... including a V10,a Dieselgate Passat, and 2 ECOdiesels.
2014 Cadillac ELR
2013 Fiat 500E.

accepted and apology offered. Actually in Europe I got Polo SDI and no hybrid approaches in simplicity and fuel economy to this 700kg, 55 hp diesel.

actually bmw did it with their 1987/88 750il

strelnik hit the nail on the head with Juergen Schrempp

i remember when the 190/300e debuted, just shook my head at all the plastic and cheapness compared to past models

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1989 300ce smoke silver / brazil, in a constant state of flux ~~~