anyone tried Enviro-safe refrigerant in a 126? - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

bcolins · #1 04-30-2012, 10:20 AM

Just installed a new R134 specific expansion valve, and new (rebuilt) A6 compressor in my 85 380SE. Have prevously flushed the entire system, and will be installing a new drier prior to vacuuming the system down. Have added the required PAG 150 that the A6 calls for with R134A,.....was just checking out Enviro-Safe's refrigerant,.....sounds great,....found one video on Youtube with a guy having just installed it in his 86 Monte Carlo,...and he mentions that his evaporator is icing up at idle.

Wondering if anyone has tried this in a 126 chassis car. They claim its 32% more efficient than even R12!

Anyone tried it?

Brian in Austin

JamesDean · #2 04-30-2012, 11:11 AM

I run the ES stuff in my 190E. I was getting high 30's at my center vent. I'm pretty pleased with its performance.

I've got R12 in my 420SEL and it only gets maybe into the low 50's on a good day.

I gave it a try on the 190E because I knew I had a small leak that would eventually empty the system as it had in the past. It was getting rather hot in the summer and I figured what the hell, its pretty cheap.

I'd already paid for R12 once when I first got the car and again when they put a dye in to find the leak. The leak was never found so its possible that its more near the evaporator.

I threw the ES stuff in and its still holding a charge a year later and running nice and cold...

You'll hear a lot of people speak against stuff like ES-12 because its a butane/propane/isobutane type fluid and as such is flamable. However I don't think its flashpoint is much different than R134A.

Freeze-12 is another commonly used refrigerant. I tried this as well, its cooling performance was poor compared to the ES-12 stuff. F-12 is 134A based.

Bolognablake · #3 04-30-2012, 01:11 PM

I had success with Envirosafe in a W124 with a weak compressor. It would barely cool with r134 and with ES it work well enough that I never replaced the compressor.

ohiomike · #4 04-30-2012, 01:45 PM

I put it in a 126 that has R-12 in it. That was 2 years ago and it has been marvelous ever since. I still have about 9 bottles left. I even put a can in a 124 Diesel I had and it worked perfectly.

alabbasi · #5 04-30-2012, 10:53 PM

ES-12a is propane. I've used it on a couple of cars and it's hit and miss.

On my old 1991 560SEL, it worked well. On my 88 560SEC, it's hit and miss (past 90 degrees it sucks).
On my latest 560SEC purchase, which was converted to R134, it blew cool but not cold. I sucked it out and installed ES-12a, it was not cold at all. So I sucked it out and put R12 in and it blew cold.

So on this one car which I suspect has a marginally working A/C system
R134 is cool
ES-12a is ineffective
R12 is cold.

I just charged a buddy's 300SD this weekend and it worked quite well.

bcolins · #6 05-01-2012, 12:27 AM

wondering if you pulled too much vacuum before charging the system. The guy I spoke to today stated that about -5 was optimum.

alabbasi · #7 05-01-2012, 01:29 AM

I charged all the cars and all the gases the same way by pulling a vac for at least 40 mins and then charging. I get consistent results with R12 but not with ES-12a which is why I say it's hit and miss.

Being that it's cheap, it's worth trying. But from my findings, it does not work as well as R12 in all applications and if you're going to spend any money on the a/c system, then it may be worthwhile converting to R134.

bcolins · #8 05-01-2012, 08:43 AM

Yeah, The customer service rep I spoke with yesterday stressed that only a medium or even NO vacuum whas better than a deep vacuum,....I would call ES about this.

alabbasi · #9 05-01-2012, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bcolins

Yeah, The customer service rep I spoke with yesterday stressed that only a medium or even NO vacuum whas better than a deep vacuum,....I would call ES about this.

I tried that once before (I was foolish enough to buy the huge jug) and did not get any better results.

As I said, I think it depends on the system more then the gas. On marginal systems it does not seem to work well , whereas R12 makes up for the inefficiencies. I don't think this is unusual, some cars which are converted to R134 which worked really well and others that did not. My old 6.9 was like that. It would freeze you out.

bcolins · #10 05-01-2012, 11:13 AM

Here's cut and paste from Enviro-safes web site. I also just called ES and talked with Zach in customer service. He stated that it is best NOT to pull a vacuum with the regular ES-12a with dye, and further, that the colder industrial product will work with or without pulling a vacuum. Moisture and air apparently are not issues when using this product.

Zach also mentioned that this is NOT a propane or butane product. (but is a Hydrocarbon) and that in 15 years of selling it, they have never had an incident of a fire or explosion. (they have heard the rumors)

From the Enviro Safe Web site: (Link: http://www.es-refrigerants.com/products/w/id/173/t/r134a-replacement-refrigerant-with-dye-can/details.asp)

Equivalent Weight Installation Chart

Download Chart (266 KB, PDF)

For best results, do NOT pull a vacuum on A/C system. (I added the orange color to highlight this statement)

(prices do not reflect shipping charges)

QUANTITY DISCOUNTS AVAILABLE!

Enviro-Safe™ Refrigerant with Dye is made of only the Most Pure, Quality, Refined ingredients available today.

Because Enviro-Safe™ Refrigerant with Dye is so efficient, you use UP TO 60% LESS! Please see EQUIVALENCIES below.

Each ounce of Enviro-Safe R134a Replacement Refrigerant with Dye is equivalent to 2.6 ounces of R134a and 3 ounces of R12.

alabbasi · #11 05-01-2012, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bcolins

[B][FONT=Arial][SIZE=2]Zach also mentioned that this is NOT a propane or butane product. (but is a Hydrocarbon) and that in 15 years of selling it, they have never had an incident of a fire or explosion. (they have heard the rumors)

Funny that? my ES-12a Cylinder has a sticker on the top saying "liquified petroleum gas" and the highly flammable symbol.

Let's not fool ourselves, it is what it is.

WDBCB20 · #12 05-02-2012, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alabbasi

alabbasi Post#1 ES-12a is propane. Actually it is not. It is a blend of hydrocarbons I've used it on a couple of cars and it's hit and miss. "It" apparently being the refrigerant.

On my old 1991 560SEL, it worked well. On my 88 560SEC, it's hit and miss (past 90 degrees it sucks). "It" apparently being the refrigerant.
On my latest 560SEC purchase, which was converted to R134, it blew cool but not cold. I sucked it out and installed ES-12a, it was not cold at all. So I sucked it out and put R12 in and it blew cold. "It" apparently being the refrigerant.

So on this one car which I suspect has a marginally working A/C system
R134 is cool
ES-12a is ineffective
R12 is cold.

I just charged a buddy's 300SD this weekend and it worked quite well. "It" being the refrigerant? and if so which one?

alabbasi Post#2 I charged all the cars and all the gases the same way by pulling a vac for at least 40 mins and then charging. Wherewith consistently employing a methodology expressly contraindicated by the hydrocarbon refrigerant manufacturer for their product. I get consistent results with R12 but not with ES-12a which is why I say it's hit and miss. "It" apparently being the refrigerant.

Being that it's cheap, it's worth trying. "It" apparently being the refrigerant.
But from my findings, it does not work as well as R12 in all applications and if you're going to spend any money on the a/c system, then it may be worthwhile converting to R134. The consensus on (which has been arrived at by considerable waste of time and money) use of R134 in the old MB R12 systems for which they were not designed is immediate or rapid deterioration to sub par cooling ending in shortened life of the system.

alabbasi Post#3 As I said, I think it depends on the system more then the gas. Actually, this is the first time you say this. In the previous posts as revealed above you appear to indict the refrigerant, not the system, and the take away the reader is left with is that ES-12a is not recommended which you then somewhat reinforce once again here: On marginal systems it does not seem to work well , whereas R12 makes up for the inefficiencies. I don't think this is unusual, some cars which are converted to R134 which worked really well and others that did not. My old 6.9 was like that. It would freeze you out.

I'd just want to join Brian Carlton in urging more care and accuracy in our written contributions to the site which, many of us access to help us make repair and purchase (time and $)decisions. Refrigeration especially is rife with so many variables and unless you are (strictly) controlling for all of them you're merely left with anecdote the plural of which does not make data.

bcolins · #13 05-02-2012, 11:43 AM

Wondering if those who got poor results are using the standard ES-12a AND Pulling a deep vacuum. Envirosafe states clearly, that with the non-industrial ES-12a with dye, that little or no vacuum should be pulled. Pulling a vacuum with the non-industrial ES-12a will make it ineffective. (According to Zach at Enviro-safe.

JamesDean · #14 05-02-2012, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bcolins

Wondering if those who got poor results are using the standard ES-12a AND Pulling a deep vacuum. Envirosafe states clearly, that with the non-industrial ES-12a with dye, that little or no vacuum should be pulled. Pulling a vacuum with the non-industrial ES-12a will make it ineffective. (According to Zach at Enviro-safe.

Whenever I used the ES-12A stuff I never pulled a vacuum.

My first "experiment" was on my 190E where the R12 leaked out less than a year after it was charged (2006, leaked out in early 2007).

After that I had my shop charge it with Freeze12 which also leaked out about a year later.

Finally I said the hell with it and that I'd give up. I didnt have money at the time to re-build the a/c system. I came across ES-12A and at the time it was $40. I said what the hell, we'll see what happens.

I bought a set of manifold gauges to attempt a more proper charge. I figured they'd come in handy on any of the other MB's here too. I charged it up and been working ever since.

My center vents output a nice temperature in the high 30's. Its refreshingly cold.

Hit Man X · #15 05-02-2012, 07:08 PM

Just use R12, it is about $10/lb if you know how to shop... cheaper than the street price or 134A which is $10/12oz.