Parts Catalog Accessories Catalog How To Articles Tech Forums
Call Pelican Parts at 888-280-7799
Shopping Cart Cart | Project List | Order Status | Help




Go Back   PeachParts Mercedes ShopForum > Technical Information and Support > Tech Help

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 06-25-2002, 12:30 AM
jerry s
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
S 600 blown engine

Posting this to several forums as i'm a bit frantic. My 1995 S600 with 55K miles began to act a bit more sluggish right out of Boise, and somewhat later there was increased color (dark) to the exhaust when downshifting into passing gear. Took it to the dealership, and they swapped computers, air mass meters and o2 sensors and found tht the left bank of cylinders was pumping way too much fuel. None of the above fixes helped and
the final diagnosis was a crumbled wire harness. Cost to fix, $6K. Sad song, but gets worse. He thinks the engine may have been permanently damaged by too rich fuel flow and feels the best bet would be a rebuilt engine at $28K. Worth of vehicle is 30-40K and it is in excellent condition, interior is showroom and all the goodies work. Min paint chips. Has anyone ever heard of this problem with blown V-12's? I have written MB more of less offering to pay for the harness, but if the engine is gone I hope they would help with that. This is a known design defect, but apparently no technical bulletin issued as I checked with my shop the day I got the car and made sure everything was kosher. Unfortunately, i was not the car's first owner. Any thoughts?
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 06-25-2002, 01:11 AM
AMGmercedes's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Baltimore, MD
Posts: 203
With too much fuel(rich) all you do is waste gas and maybe damage your catalytic convertors. Only if your engine was running lean could you have some damage. I would get a compression/leak down test at another repair facility and go from there before spending any more money.
__________________
Bart
1993 300D 2.5 Turbo
1987 190E 2.3-16
1986 190E 2.3-16(M103-3.0)

1990 300D 2.5 Turbo(sold)
1987 300SDL Turbo(sold)
1987 300TD Turbo(sold)
1987 190D 2.5 Turbo 5sp(sold)
1985 190E 2.3-16(sold)
1984 500SEC(sold)
1984 230TE(sold)
1978 240D(sold)-Miss it!
1972 280SE 4.5(sold)
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 06-25-2002, 01:38 AM
jerry s
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
s 600 blown engine

Thanks. I guess the mechanic thought that all the extra fuel "washed all the oil off the pistons and caused the rings to burn" I don't want to pretend to be any sort of mechanic these days, but apparently the pistons are silicon lined and the valves are chrome, so they should be pretty resilient. I thought about the catalytic converters, though. Someone said that we should have smelled something burning, and we didn't so hopfully it was a brief enough event that they weren't damaged.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 06-25-2002, 08:33 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: England
Posts: 1,841
Shouldn't there be a 'check engine' light warning of these problems?
__________________
190E's:
2.5-16v 1990 90,000m Astral Silver
2.0E 8v 1986 107,000m Black 2nd owner
http://www.maylane.demon.co.uk/190esmall.jpghttp://www.maylane.demon.co.uk/190esmall2.jpg
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 06-25-2002, 11:26 AM
dpetryk's Avatar
Electrons can do anything
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 1,071
The engine damage part of your story sounds fishey to me. I have never heard of a "too rich" mixture causing any engine damage. It will cause carbon build up, but damage? I think not. If the fuel was so rich as to "wash all the oil off the pistons and caused the rings to burn" I doubt it would run at all. You would have to have a serious flooding with all that fuel and things dont ignite when there is that much fuel.

I would replace the wiring harness first, and then test the engine and see what condition it is in. One step at a time.
__________________
I got too many cars!! Insurance eats me alive. Dave

78 Corvette Stingray - 3k
82 242 Turbo Volvo - Manual - 270k
86 300e 5 speed manual - 210k
87 420sel - 240k
89 560sl - 78k
91 420sel - 205k
91 560sel - 85k
94 GMC Suburban - 90k
97 Harley Davidson Heritage Softail - 25k
00 GMC Silverado 1 ton 30k
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 06-25-2002, 11:37 AM
Fimum Fit
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Well, I have indeed heard of motors

damaged by excess unatomized fuel washing down the cylinder walls and causing the rings to score them deeply, and that was with cast iron blocks -- with an aluminum-silicon block, I would expect the problem to be worse rather than better. On the other hand, the damage hasn't yet been proven to exist; even if there is some, it may be very light and go away again after a long "break-in" period -- I've seen that happen, too, albeit on a farm tractor which flooded its intake system because of a stuck carburator float.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 06-25-2002, 11:39 AM
LarryBible
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
If it were really pouring in the fuel, washing down cylinder walls and diluting the oil, it is indeed possible that there is damage.

Best of luck,
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 06-25-2002, 11:39 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Columbus Ohio
Posts: 709
Has the car been dealer maintained its whole life?....if so..I would think that the dealer would go to bat with you with the MB zone rep and get you some assitance....at 55K miles MB should be willing to contribute......PROVIDED that the car has an good service history...which usually means only a dealer worked on it


Warren
1992 300SD 142K
Columbus Ohio
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 06-25-2002, 11:48 AM
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Falls Church, VA
Posts: 5,316
"He thinks the engine may have been permanently damaged by too rich fuel flow and feels the best bet would be a rebuilt engine at $28K. "

It's a good bet all right - for him.

He wants you to spend $28K without even running the standard checks like compression and leak down, looking at the cylinder bores, testing the oil for fuel contamination ...

I would get the car to another mechanic as quickly as possible. And I would certainly raise hell with Mercedes about their flagship model needing a wiring harness at 55K miles.

Good luck.
__________________
Chuck Taylor
Falls Church VA
'66 200, '66 230SL, '96 SL500. Sold: '81 380SL, '86 300E, '72 250C, '95 C220, 3 '84 280SL's '90 420SEL, '72 280SE, '73 280C, '78 280SE, '70 280SL, '77 450SL, '85 380SL, '87 560SL, '85 380SL, '72 350SL, '96 S500 Coupe
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 06-25-2002, 11:54 AM
dpetryk's Avatar
Electrons can do anything
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 1,071
I read it as he was driving the car when the "washing" occured. So the engine was running. It had to be firing. I find it hard to believe that he had so much fuel as to wash the cylinder walls while driving the car. Can you get enough liquid fuel in a combustion chamber while it is running to wash the oil away?

Educate me.

I love this board, I learn new things all the time.
__________________
I got too many cars!! Insurance eats me alive. Dave

78 Corvette Stingray - 3k
82 242 Turbo Volvo - Manual - 270k
86 300e 5 speed manual - 210k
87 420sel - 240k
89 560sl - 78k
91 420sel - 205k
91 560sel - 85k
94 GMC Suburban - 90k
97 Harley Davidson Heritage Softail - 25k
00 GMC Silverado 1 ton 30k
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 06-25-2002, 12:56 PM
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Old Lyme, Connecticut
Posts: 3,596
Jerry S,

I agree with most who have noted the likelihood of severe damage should be low. I am having a hard time believing the fuel injection system is capable of passing enough gasoline into the cylinders to wash them and remove the lubricant film. At least not without having the check engine light come on, and make the engine run so poorly the car would not move.

As I recall when MB introduced the aluminum alloy block with the embedded silicon crystals, they installed a boroscope or fiberscope at every dealership and the bore conditions were visually recorded and monitored. I also believe such an examination, along with the usual compression tests and leak down tests should be performed to assess whether or not any noted visual indications of wear are more than visually apparent surface conditions. Looking at a machined surface under high magnification can be difficult to understand without some additional information. Some stuff looks really bad close up, but is actually normal.

The original idea behind the aluminum alloy MB selected was to bore the cylinders, then acid etch a very small amount of aluminum away to have the rings ride on the polished bits of silicon that were now protruding slightly. The wear characteristics of the silicon were (are) much better than those of the aluminum and intended to be superior to those of typical sleeves or sleeveless iron based castings. In your case the rings may have suffered if indeed the oil film was washed away, or I guess if the material got hot enough you might have ripped the silicon crystals out of the aluminum (which is what MB was visually inspecting the engines for in the intial introduction period). Anyway, you cannot see the rings so you really do need to have the other tests done.

I would be reluctant to give in on the wiring harness at 55,000 miles. That is barely out of the 100% warranty period, and it is a major defect in either workmanship or design, unless there is some sign of other damage, in which case you might get your insurance company to kick in for the repair (like rodent damage or road debris or something).

Good luck, Jim
__________________
Own:
1986 Euro 190E 2.3-16 (291,000 miles),
1998 E300D TurboDiesel, 231,000 miles -purchased with 45,000,
1988 300E 5-speed 252,000 miles,
1983 240D 4-speed, purchased w/136,000, now with 222,000 miles.
2009 ML320CDI Bluetec, 89,000 miles

Owned:
1971 220D (250,000 miles plus, sold to father-in-law),
1975 240D (245,000 miles - died of body rot),
1991 350SD (176,560 miles, weakest Benz I have owned),
1999 C230 Sport (45,400 miles),
1982 240D (321,000 miles, put to sleep)
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 06-25-2002, 12:58 PM
LarryBible
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Yes, I believe you can get this much fuel while rolling down the road. There is a point where it would be so much fuel that it would be more than the minimum combustion chamber volume would be exceeded causing uncompressable liquid causing serious damage. But, I think it's safe to say that the injectors could not flow this volume even if held wide open constantly.

An excessively rich condition would NOT be a healthy thing.

Have a great day,
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 06-25-2002, 01:28 PM
jbaj007's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Santa Monica, CA
Posts: 2,053
Oil analysis would tell % of gasoline in oil and give a good idea of the "oil washing". Needs a lot of tests; compresssion, leak down, boroscope, wire trace, before condemning the engine. I think it's worth contacting a vehicle transport company and getting it out of there and off to Continental Imports or MB Autowerks or Bergworks. Best $1000. you'll spend on it. eBay sellers transport cars cross-country all the time; one of them will tell you who to use for transport of a high end vehicle.
__________________
The Golden Rule

1984 300SD (bought new, sold it in 1988, bought it back 13 yrs. later)
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 06-25-2002, 01:32 PM
Moderator
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Southern California, U.S.A.
Posts: 8,508
Yep.

Based on the amount of money you're likely to spend (or not spend) on the car, I think you'd be better off taking it to one of the indpendent techs that Moderate the site, such as Steve Brotherton's shop, Continental Imports in Florida, Donnie's shop in Georgia, MB Autowerks, or even the shop that Ashman recommends highly, Mr. MB Motors in Tarzana, CA.
__________________
Paul S.

2001 E430, Bourdeaux Red, Oyster interior.
79,200 miles.

1973 280SE 4.5, 170,000 miles. 568 Signal Red, Black MB Tex. "The Red Baron".
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 06-25-2002, 07:30 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: NY
Posts: 500
Oil analysis

would show not only gas in the oil, but most importantly abnormally high metal content if the engine was damaged.
I use Blackstone Lab for my cars. It is only $17.
For your reference the last Mobil 1 15w50 oil analysis results from 92 600SEL with 117k miles on V12 engine:
Aluminum 3
Chromium 3
Iron 8
Copper 3
Lead 0
Tin 1
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On




All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:59 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2011 Pelican Parts - Posts may be archived for display on the Peach Parts or Pelican Parts Website -    DMCA Registered Agent Contact Page