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  #1  
Old 08-15-2002, 09:26 PM
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California officers plug into your car to see how illegal you are?

I've just attended a Bosch course for independent techs on Lambda sensors.

They measured lambda values by connecting to the OBD on-board-diagnostic socket, which can double as a 'CARB' plug, which is California..something..something.. The speaker said it could be used by officers if they find your car has bad emissions, to plug into your car and see for how many days this has been the case, and fining you accordingly.

Is this scheme in operation in california? What happens if you say, remove the diagnostic plug fuse, or the wires for the earth pin (4/5) so the plug doesn't work. Can they not fine you?!



For the record:
The lambda sensor's main purpose is to reduce emissions. It measures the amount of oxygen in a car's exhaust gases and adjusts the fuel/air mixture to compensate. If its voltage is low, the ECU sees this and richens the mix (longer injection duration) and vica versa if voltage is high, to get the perfect mix for clean combustion.

When working ok, and on constant throttle/idle, the sensor should alternate between high and low voltage around once a second (it is a simple device with no state for 'mix is just right').
Under acceleration, the ECU ignores it and adds more fuel, so in this case the sensor would be 'high' for too much fuel.
I won't go into more detail


Have the techs on the board had training on lambda sensors? (FTR we also looked at the new 'Planar' ones, which work very differently, demonstrated on a 2002 Audi A4 2.0 20v)
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  #2  
Old 08-16-2002, 12:36 PM
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I'm not sure about officers doing that, but Texas emissions laws just got tougher this year. Now, the inspectors do stick the ODBII device onto the computer and check for codes (can't just remove that "Check Engine" bulb out of the indicator slot anymore).

The inspection stations require more sophisticated equipment to do the emissions checks, so I'm sure a lot of indies (possibly shady ones) just got obsoleted out of the business.

So far, all of my MB cars check out well above specs (whew)! VW is old enough to waive emissions (also good)!
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  #3  
Old 08-16-2002, 01:20 PM
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CARB is an acronym for California Air Resources Board. It's the government body which sets air pollution standards for California.

Back here in Texas, my diesels are all exempt from the new emissions standards. Hah! Still paying only twelve bucks for my annual sticker...
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  #4  
Old 08-16-2002, 07:43 PM
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A guy I know went for the biennial CA smog check and failed because he had replaced the ECU in his nonMB car with one from an earlier model. The test is that specific.

Brings up an interesting point. I read that some folks were worried that their cars might be affected by Y2K bugs. Several authorities said that ECUs don't have calendars. If so, how can anyone know how long in days the check engine light has been on?

Is it illegal to drve with the check engine light on?

Big brother must be bored.

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  #5  
Old 08-17-2002, 12:58 AM
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hmm... I apologize for my ignorance, but do older pre 92 w124s with the m103 engines have such a sophisticated ECU that they can store the dates and put out engine codes? I don't know, I just have never seen anyone hook up a code scanner to an m103.

Also, when did this new emissions law go into place? I got my sticker a couple months ago, and it cost me 12 bucks and no scanning or emission testing went on...
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  #6  
Old 08-17-2002, 01:49 AM
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Quote:
hmm... I apologize for my ignorance, but do older pre 92 w124s with the m103 engines have such a sophisticated ECU that they can store the dates and put out engine codes? I don't know, I just have never seen anyone hook up a code scanner to an m103.


No, the 103 engine management was not sophisticated enough to store dates or number of occurances. OBD scanners are useless also.
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  #7  
Old 08-17-2002, 10:11 PM
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yay! Chalk one up for old technology!
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  #8  
Old 08-18-2002, 09:57 AM
LarryBible
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G-Benz,

Just so you know, the emmissions inspection you refer to is only done in Dallas, Collin, Tarrant, Harris and maybe just a few other counties.

Thank goodness I live in Lamar county and don't have to put up with this crap!

Inspection in the other counties is a safety inspection only. I have considered moving closer to the Metroplex but things like this are why I don't. It doesn't hurt that my property taxes are basically zero relative to Collin County.

Have a great day,
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  #9  
Old 08-18-2002, 05:14 PM
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Amazing how info gets turned around.

There are no histories recorded in OBDII or I. The closest thing to a history is freeze frame data captured at the moment of the two failures it takes to set the light.

The closest this info has to fact is the projections for OBDIII. For years now the OBDII monitors have done a better job of monitoring emissions than do tailpipe tests. BUT, great amounts of money were spent on tailpipe test equipment so OBDIII has been put off.

Some various plans for OBDIII are, one case would have cars restricted to 50mph after the light was set, with further reductions in speed down to 15 mph at 50 mile intervals till fixed, another would have direct satellite monitoring, real time. The manufacturers don't want the first (they will get blamed) and the ACLU doesn't want the second. Some form of government monitoring of onboard info IS planned.

And BTW, this wildebeast got his first O2 sensor training about 22 years ago. Have repaired systems, designed systems, built systems, wrote about them and taught them.

You old worlders are just getting into this pond, we have been in it for 23 years.
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  #10  
Old 08-18-2002, 05:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by stevebfl

And BTW, this wildebeast got his first O2 sensor training about 22 years ago. Have repaired systems, designed systems, built systems, wrote about them and taught them.

You old worlders are just getting into this pond, we have been in it for 23 years.
I hadn't actually been born 22 years ago, and I gotta learn it sometime..

I only meant CARB diagnostics having histories, not OBD - are they capable of counting days, hours, or anything? Will they be? I think the speaker didn't say the scheme *was* in operation, only suggested it was a possibility
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  #11  
Old 08-18-2002, 07:48 PM
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While I live in Virginia, I heard on a local radio broadcast of The Pat Goss Show, that Maryland is, as of 1 Jul 02, using OBDII as the only input to their emissions "pass-fail" review at inspection time.

This does raise all sorts of interesting scenarios, but, all things being equal, I would assume it also does a better job of ensuring compliance.

The Republican in me says "I HATE the idea of anyone being this invasive ... the Democrat says, "this is a very thorough method of ensuring compliance with air pollution standards."

Someone once told me Democrats were very smart people with bad ideas and Republicans were average people with good ideas ... or was it the other way around ....?

Virginia has no diesel emissions test - even though it isn't napalm, I do love the smell of JP-5 in the morning.
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  #12  
Old 08-18-2002, 11:32 PM
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I'm sure that CARB has it in their sights to require historical data in the future. And so as CARB goes, so does the nation. Auto manufacturers spend enough money on their controllers, that they don't want to engineer two systems. Plus, it would mean that a car bought in Oregon couldn't later be resold in California as a used car (well, it just couldn't be registered there).

What a bunch of socialists!

Controllers have keep alive memory that retain memory as long as the battery is connected. They use this to map engine/sensor characteristics for better emissions and performance. Fault code data is also stored there. A fault would have to occur x number of key-on cycles before being stored as a code and would have to be absent for x number of key cycles before being removed.

While a controller has a timer, it start up from zero on every time you turn the ignition key on. It cannot remember calendar time if it wanted. There are no plans to incorporate calander time in any controller at least up to 2006.

I have incorporated histogram data for racing applications that could be downloaded showing times spent in certian RPM bands. The drivers always swore they never used the engine to brake nor even overrev the engine. (Data shwed otherwise )
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  #13  
Old 08-19-2002, 09:33 AM
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Actually, I would guess that the most recent networks store time. They are afterall they are tied to navigation and communications that require it.

Also there is no real problem with storing info through key cycles. Many systems use codes that are not cleared by disconnecting the battery.
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  #14  
Old 08-19-2002, 10:40 AM
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True. The newer systems can store codes in EEPROM. Ignition key codes are stored there.

But while all micros on the network talk to each other, they don't sync up their timers. Plus, calendar time is much different. Microcontrollers have timers that are dependent on the crystal frequency they are running and most rollover in seconds. To support calendar time, there must be a seperate timer IC and that cost dollars. It may be required sometime in the future, but as for now, we are doing 2006 quotes and there is no requirement for keeping calendar time.
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'05 E320 CDI - 86,000 miles
'86 300SDL - 360,000 miles
'85 300SD - 150,000 miles (sold)
'89 190D - 120,000 miles (sold)
'85 300SD - 317,000 miles (sold)
'98 ML320 - 270,000 miles (sold)
'75 300D - 170,000 miles (sold)
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