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  #16  
Old 08-19-2002, 08:51 PM
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I'll add my 2 cents and agree with my learned and more experienced colleagues above and recommend staying with R-12. As someone who has a W124 with a factory-installed R-134a system I am here to tell you it is marginal in really hot weather, especially in stop-and-go traffic. This is in a system designed for R-134a, so imagine what happens if you are trying to "convert" an R-12 system (but not replacing the condenser, etc.)

Bite the bullet, get a new evaporator, stay with R-12.

Incidentally, book time for evaporator replacement on a W124 is about 13 hours. (The higher figure in a post above is probably for the even-more difficult W140 chassis).

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'93 400E
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  #17  
Old 08-19-2002, 09:37 PM
R Easley
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90mbenz wrote that they heard that it would be illegal to sell R-12 after this year. While that may be true in certain locales, I cannot find anything on the EPA site that confirms this and indeed, there is a lot of information that indicates that it is probably not true. There are a number of good EPA links but this one will get you started. It's quite interesting reading if you're into auto A/C at all.

For example, did you know that the EPA *encourages* license holders with proper recovery equipment to go to salvage yards and recover and purchase R-12 from salvage cars? It's on the EPA site. All in all, I found that the EPA site was a lot more "consumer-friendly" regarding R-12 that I expected. I've been there before, but hadn't spent this much time there . . .

Richard Easley
Waco, Texas
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  #18  
Old 08-19-2002, 10:16 PM
420benz's Avatar
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609 test

LARRY: What is the correct site to take the 609 test for only 15.00?
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  #19  
Old 08-19-2002, 11:55 PM
R Easley
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This is a
listing of every 609 certification program in the country.

Richard Easley
Waco, Texas
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  #20  
Old 08-20-2002, 02:43 AM
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I can agree with R12 in the hotter States we lived in Fla. before moving to OR.in Fla. the colder the better especially after car sat in sun.Here in Costal Oregon we get along O.K. with R134.........
William Rogers.......
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  #21  
Old 08-20-2002, 05:30 AM
LarryBible
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420 Benz,

http://imaca.org


90MBenz,

I don't know where you got your information, we will be allowed to purchase R12 with certification as long as it is available. This means the virgin R12 that is on the shelf and the recycled. I expect that this will be a long time since the cars that require it are now hitting the junkyards in accelerated numbers. I expect it to be available for the rest of my lifetime.

Also if you pay $1,000 for a 30 pound cylinder, you are paying about $350 too much. The average price is about $650 or so.

Good luck,
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  #22  
Old 08-20-2002, 01:45 PM
RON FINLAY
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Thank you all for your input. This car is just kind of overwheming me with the amount of repairs that need to be done. Of all the vehicles I have ever owned, I have never spent so much money keeping up with repairs and I keep my vehicles until the wheels fall off.

I never really knew about sites like this that discuss repair solutions/problems. With the 75 300D, I have had few problems other than rubber parts needing replacing. When I got the 124 used, I also finally got a computer and started using the net. If I would have found such sites before the purchase, I would have not purchased the vehicle.

All of you provide a good service and advice.

Ron

PS - I think it was Steve Brotherton that said that MB put out a cost of ownership warning with these faulty ac evaporator prone vehicles. I find that rather comical. Here one pays mucho $$$$ for an MB and they warn you that they could be a money pit when it comes to repairs. Nice they warn you, but they should not have to because they should have fixed the problem.

Sorry, I'll get off my soap box.
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  #23  
Old 08-20-2002, 02:32 PM
LarryBible
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Ron,

I hate to see the 124 condemned for the a/c system. The a/c system seems to be an afterthought for the US market.

In the MB Buyers Guide it points out that the climate control and a/c are definitely this cars Achilles heel. It also says that it's worth the a/c hassle to drive such a fabulous vehicle. I agree, the 124 is a masterpiece of a car IMHO.

I like the simplicity of the 123 cars, but the 124 is far superior as a drivers car.

I have never heard of the warning you mentioned, but if Steve says it's true, then it's true.

My $0.02,
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  #24  
Old 08-20-2002, 07:44 PM
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I agree with Larry. Don't condemn the 124. It is truly one of the finest MBs, or vehicle of ANY make, made. The evaporator is a one-time fix and, unfortunately, the cost of ownership of this otherwise superb car. I know how it feels when these repairs mount up, and they do seem to come in spurts.

The way I look at it, if I found a new car which a) I could afford; and b) I liked half as much as my 400E, I would be paying a minimum of $400-600/month (and likely more). That's $4800/yr conservatively, not to mention higher taxes and insurance premiums.

Even if you take your car to the dealer for the evaporator replacement, you won't spend half that this year in repairs. And you'll be driving one of the safest, best-engineered vehicles around which is designed to go for hundreds of thousands of miles ...
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  #25  
Old 08-20-2002, 09:24 PM
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Quote:
As someone who has a W124 with a factory-installed R-134a system I am here to tell you it is marginal in really hot weather, especially in stop-and-go traffic.
Just to provide another experience with R134a, my experience is a little different than 400E. Cooling effectiveness may vary from car to car, buy my 93 300E came with R134a from the factory, and it has the coldest a/c on any car I have ever owned. Even in stop and go traffic in Southern California in 100 degree weather, it still blows ice cold.

I'd also like to state for the record that everytime I turn on the a/c, I keep my fingers crossed that it will still blow cold. I am dreading the day when I'll have to replace the evaporator.
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2001 E430, Bourdeaux Red, Oyster interior.
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1973 280SE 4.5, 170,000 miles. 568 Signal Red, Black MB Tex. "The Red Baron".
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  #26  
Old 08-20-2002, 10:25 PM
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Check out Cap'n Courageous' thread, "Unconverting from R134". Very timely to this thread.

I've owned 5 factory-equipped R134 cars and none of them get as cold as my previous R12 vehicles. Of course, in the midwest when it gets to 95-100 degrees we also have high humidity with dew points in the 70s -- which makes a big difference in cooling capacity.

I
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  #27  
Old 08-20-2002, 11:10 PM
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Might as well throw my .02 in.

Having done a 134 conversion on my '86 as part of a compressor replacement, I have to say that once you consider the cost of the new dryer, the two sensors, the Schraeder valve, the solvent, and the ester oil, you are better off to replace the evaporator. With the stop-leak stuff, you run a real risk of totally hosing your system, having investing several hundred bucks in the R134 conversion.

It also looks like the R12 situation is improving in terms of supply.

These are great cars but you do need to forgive the HVAC system.
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'66 200, '66 230SL, '96 SL500. Sold: '81 380SL, '86 300E, '72 250C, '95 C220, 3 '84 280SL's '90 420SEL, '72 280SE, '73 280C, '78 280SE, '70 280SL, '77 450SL, '85 380SL, '87 560SL, '85 380SL, '72 350SL, '96 S500 Coupe
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  #28  
Old 08-21-2002, 07:46 AM
LarryBible
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Suganami,

Your car being originally 134 makes it a pretty decent a/c. When I condemn 134 in the 124 cars, I'm speaking of conversions. There are a number of things done by the factory to provide decent performance from 134.

I test drove a '92 300D in August some years ago with a factory 134 system. The a/c performed very well.

Have a great day,
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  #29  
Old 08-21-2002, 09:40 AM
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R134 is great if the system was well designed in the first place...

My experience has been as such, 88 Toyota truck and 89 Accord that I converted myself as "drop in" conversions. Both work very well and have lasted several years since conversion. Cars I bought new (the family car driven by the wife) have been, 93 Camry, 95 Avalon, 98 Millenia(POS) and 99 Regal. All r134 cars and all except the Millenia had great AC systems. In 95 I bought a 93 Nissan King Cab (later gave to my son) and the AC has never been touched and still works great! The 89 W124 's compressor was nearly toast when I bought it, so I had it professionally converted with a new compressor. All I can say about this car is that I'd rather drive it in cool weather as the heater works a lot better than the AC. I'm seriously considering converting it back to R12, but from what I have read here, It probably won't help much, since this was a poorly designed system to begin with.
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  #30  
Old 08-21-2002, 09:53 AM
LarryBible
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Agreed the 124, R12 systems are not the best performing systems ever made, but when working right, they work well. The fault with them lies in the failure rate of components, not the lack of cooling capacity when using the refrigerant that they were designed for.

The problem when converting is that they are designed on the edge, so there is no performance margin to be used up in the conversion.

As far as converting back, if you will flush everything, replace filter drier, put in the correct amount of mineral oil, you can have a decent performing a/c system. My 124 is still R12 and performs well. Keep in mind that I live in Texas and deal with some pretty hot days, and I still stay very comfortable.

Have a great day,

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