My beatiful car is sick

Mon night, after testing out whether my vent temperature is any colder after tweaking ACC some more (disconnecting electrical plug going to the vacuum switchover valve that controls opening the "fresh air scoop" -- the "long strke" one), I pulled in the Albertson's parking lot and noticed curious vapors arising from under the hood, and a rich trail of coolant behind the car. Turned out the upper radiator hose popped off the radiator fitting. Somehow, I haven't noticed the actual event. I don't believe that engine has actually overheated immediately prior to that, it was running at about 105-110C, give or take, but I can't really be sure. From the shape of the trail, looks like the hose came off very shortly before I pulled into the parking lot. Anyway, after reattaching the hose, putting in about half-gallon of coolant and driving home, upon getting there I discovered that the coolant overflow tank is empty again Next morning I added coolant again, and drove the car a bit around the parking lot, and it does consume coolant (although at a progressively slower rate) Checking oil level shows that it's about 1 inch above the max level, and the oil itself is way less viscous than what 15W40 is supposed to be. So it looks like my oil and coolant are travelling along the same roads now, likely due to a failed head gasket. So much for showing off my black beauty at the GTG (the car's actually drivable, but with so much coolant in the oil I doubt it's a good idea).

So I'm going to pull the head off the engine and see what the actual damage is. Greg, Randy & Co lifted my spirits some by expressing a high degree of confidence that it's just the head gasket itself that's blown, there shouldn't be any significant damage to the cylinder block or the head itself. It's uncharacteristic for me to express optimism, but I'm really hoping for that to be the case, I like this car a lot.

This will be my first foray into the innards of an automotive engine, so I'm sure it'll be adventurous. The job doesn't look that bad from the description in the FSM, but I'm sure the actual experience will be quite different. A few questions for the experts:

1) Can one obtain the required double-hex socket in some local store (e.g. Sears), or is it necessary to buy the actual MB tool (617 589 00 10 00)?

2) I lack an engine hoist, so the head will have to be lifted through the means of a few guys pulling it up. How much does the head on a 617 weigh?

3) I know the importance of KISS, and baby steps, etc., but what else should I keep an eye open for "while I'm in there"? Not necessarily for an immediate action, but to know what shape the engine's in (and if something can be proactively fixed easily, why not do it now)? The engine's got a lot of blowby.

Thanks,

yuri

Well, first of all, I'm no expert at removing a 617 head.

But, I'm in the process of doing exactly what you are contemplating for the exact same reasons. The 617 uses coolant and the oil analysis shows antifreeze.

So, I'm taking it rather slow myself. Here is what I know to date:

1) I picked up a set of double hex sockets (Lisle) from a local autoparts store. They are a bit pricey ($17.00 for a set of 4). I understand that Poop Boys or Autozone may have a set for less money.

2) RWT recently did the head on the 617 and he lifted it without any assistance. Without anything attached, it's weight is about 75 lbs. Without a hoist, you will need to remove the manifolds and turbo prior to removing the head. In my case, I'm going to borrow a hoist and leave them on the head.

3) My personal recommendation is to spend the extra money and have the head done properly by a shop that knows this engine. I still need to find a suitable shop locally to me. There are shops throughout the country, but, I'd prefer to avoid the rather steep shipping cost.

With regard to the blowby, it is likely a situation caused by rings. If so, you would need to make a decision whether to go into the bottom end of the engine. This is a major decision and usually means pulling the engine. Of course, once you get it all apart, you are typically looking at some serious change to replace the worn components. You get into the "while I'm already in there" syndrome in a big way.

As I write this, I've got all the accessories off the head and need to remove both oil supply and drain lines. Then I'm ready to remove the valve cover and start with the chain.

The FSM is almost a necessity if you have never done this job before.

Send me a PM if you have any questions and I'll let you know what I have done with it.

Coolant is heaver than oil. Try cracking open the oil drain plug and see what comes out of the bottom of your oil pan.

What color was the oil? If it was still jet black, you prolly don't have water in the oil. Is water blowing out your tailpipe? I recommend more analysis before pulling the head--it does not really sound like you got the engine hot enough and long enough to blow the gasket.

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1984 300SD 326,997 miles and counting . . . No wait, my odometer is still dead

The oil on the SD is jet black. There is no sign of any coolant in the oil.

But the coolant reservoir loses about a pint every 1000 miles and the oil analysis is positive for glycol and has sodium and potassium in elevated numbers.

Operation of the 617 in this condition is not recommended due to potential damage to the main and rod bearings.

If you wait until you can see coolant on the dipstick, you have waited far too long.

I was addressing Rurik more than you. If he suddenly lost more than 1/2 gallon of coolant into the oil, I think the oil would not be jet black. Also, his description of the event did not make me think he had overheated to the extent of blowing a headgasket. I simply recommended that he do more analysis before jerking off the head. I did not recommend that he drive the car without further investigation.

Of course, he may have a blown gasket, but why tear into an engine without more evidence?

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1984 300SD 326,997 miles and counting . . . No wait, my odometer is still dead

You lucky SOB. I wish I had seen those first...

I found myself needing these more and more recently so I bought the 10 and 12mm triple square sockets from Snap-off. Cost me about $25-30 each in 1/2" drive.

For the head though, I'd go with the Hazet tool (the 617 p/n you mentioned in post #1). A long shaft on the tool is needed to access the bolts along the cam towers on some 617 engines. The snap on stuff just won't fit it.

If you still want another reason to pull the head off, check the rear of the head, its probably seeping oil. All 3 of mine are

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1980 500SE/AMG Euro
1981 500SEL Euro
1982 380SEL
1983 300TD
1983 500SEC/AMG Euro
1984 500SEC
1984 300TD Euro
1986 190E 2.3-16
1986 190E 2.3
1987 300D
1997 C36 AMG
2003 C320T 4matic

past: 1969 280SE 4.5 | 1978 240D | 1978 300D | 1981 300SD | 1981 300SD | 1982 300CD | 1983 300CD | 1983 300SD | 1983 380SEC | 1984 300D | 1984 300D | 1984 300TD | 1984 500SEL | 1984 300SD | 1985 300D | 1986 300E | 1986 560SEL | 1986 560SEL/Carat | 1987 560SEC | 1991 300D 2.5 | 2006 R350

Explain in more detail. Will these Lisle bits fit the head bolts? If not, why not??

John is right. The cam towers are too close and you need the extra length to get past the tower. If it is too short the female end of the bit is too big in diameter to fit by the tower. We did the 1985 two months ago and the memory of it is still fresh in my mind. The job was way easier than I thought it would be even with the dreaded trap oxidizer. We did the valve job ourselves including all the valve guides. The exhaust guides were shot. We just bit the bullet and bought the MB tool. I think the tool cost us $35. The car runs like a champ now.

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1983 300-D turbo
1985 300-D turbo
1959 Harley Panhead chopper
1929 Ford coupe restored
I hang out with Boneheaddoctor at Schuman Automotive OBK#5
All liberals are mattoids but not all mattoids are liberal.

Terrrific.

Thanks for the heads up.

Thanks for advice everyone.

I'm going to investigate this some more before thinking more about pulling the head. I'll try to get some solid evidence. Unfortunately, most of the easy checks are quite subjective. For instance, "jet black" is not something that I can trust my eyes to identify. Oil viscosity is also not a good metric, at the current ambient temperature it's quite different from the last time I handled used oil. Oil level on the dipstick is not subjective, but who knows, it's not like I last checked it the day before losing coolant. My memory's bad, and I'm not just saying it.

I drained some oil from the bottom of the pan, it doesn't look like there was any visible amount of water there, which is encouraging. I poured some oil in a glass bottle, and also poured some in another bottle, added some water and shook. We'll see how it looks after settling overnight; if the water layer looks greenish, that'd be a bad sign. I guess I'll just need to get oil analisys done to be sure.

Blueranger could be on the money about a radiator crack. There's some wetness around the top of the radiator. There was coolant splashed all over the engine compartment when the hose popped off, and pretty much everything was wet, but most of that should probably have evaporated by now. The coolant that I added was 2 parts Prestone 1 part water, I don't know how quickly that mix is supposed to evaporate though. I did try looking for any leaks while the car was running, and couldn't see any, but I'll try again, harder. What I don't understand though is how the fluid level in the overflow tank could drop so much as to require adding half a gallon worth of coolant, in a span of 10 min, without any coolant dropping on the ground. That's just too much liquid to simply evaporate on the way down. Where could all this coolant go?

This comment is very interesting:
How normal is it to keep on having to add more coolant after having a loose hose? I had to add it three times, basically each time after driving a car, although each time I had to add progressively less. Is it feasible to have a void in the system that could be responsible for several quarts of coolant? Note that the engine temperature is OK now, holding around 85C (with AC off), which I presume means the thermostat is working.

I'll get busy reading about radiator and thermostat issues. Can't say I'm thrilled about the prospect of having to buy a new (at least to me) radiator, but that's life... Again, thanks for your help everyone.

This is pretty typical. Once the coolant gets quite low, there are pockets of air that develop in the system and you can't get them out until the thermostat opens.

I found an interesting situation with the 617 when I was taking the thermosat housing off. I had drained the radiator and the expansion tank via the plug on the bottom. Figure the system is fairly well drained, right??

Take the thermostat housing off and about a quart of coolant pours out of the head and block onto the garage floor.

Why? Well, the loop in the system with the thermostat closed prevents any coolant from leaving the head via the lower hose.

So, any air in the head or the block cannot escape until you run the engine back up to temperature and the thermostat opens.

Rurik, shake up that oil and then place a few drops on your HOT HONDA exhaust manifold... if it sizzles it has water in it...

........dont mix..... i always heard.

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[SIGPIC] Diesel loving autocrossing grandpa Architect. 08 Dodge 3/4 ton with Cummins & six speed; I have had about 35 benzes. I have a 39 Studebaker Coupe Express pickup in which I have had installed a 617 turbo and a five speed manual.[SIGPIC]

..I also have a 427 Cobra replica with an aluminum chassis.