Not starting ... 87 300D ... :( - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

BodhiBenz1987 · #1 03-20-2007, 03:25 PM

I know we have enough of these threads, so I apologize for starting another one. I've done a lot of searches and reading, and talked to my indy this morning. Just curious what you guys think. The car started fine most of the winter. During a bad cold snap in early Feb., it would not start, just cranked. GPs check out OK. The battery in it was very old, so I bought a new one from Autozone. Before I had a chance to put the new one in, the temps went up, car started, so I left the new battery in the back of my other car to put in later. About a week ago, the 300D wouldn't start again (it was about 25-30 degrees out), so three days ago I muscled the new battery in, started it up, A-OK. The next morning when I cold started it, it started but whew did it kick and bang around for about 10 seconds, then smoothed out. The next day, yesterday, it had even more trouble, even though it was about 40 degrees out. Once it had started, it was easy to start again immediately, but after sitting for about five hours was again a little rough on startup. This morning I checked the GPs cold, and sure enough 1 and 3 are bad. Then I tried to start it ... no go ... it's 55 degrees out! It seemed to me, and my indy agreed, that two bad plugs should not cause the car not to start when it is this warm out. He gave me some starter fluid and said to use a very little bit tomorrow to get the car started and bring it over to him. I'm sure he'll figure it out for me, but just out of curiousity, do you guys think it could be a battery issue? I just wonder because I did put the new battery in so recently ... and the new battery had sat in the back of the other car outside for a couple weeks, so many that had an effect on it? Or do you think it's just the GPs?

One other thing ... car is low on fuel ... not down to reserve yet, but low. Could it be a fuel delivery issue? I know if that's the case it might become more problematic the lower the fuel level gets. Just wondering.

BodhiBenz1987 · #2 03-20-2007, 03:28 PM

... just thought I'd add, for complaining's sake, that I think my cars are conspiring against me. For the third time this winter, the Jeep has thrown up a warning light shortly after the MB developed a problem. It's not a big deal, I can still drive the Jeep (well, this time at least), but I just found it amusing. I should stop parking them next to each other ... I think they plan this $&%*.

rrgrassi · #3 03-20-2007, 03:34 PM

How are the filters?

Bad GP's also give this sort of initial running qualities. Use wd-40 instead of the ether. It's not as addictive.

BTW, I love your drawing of your car. Can you draw a w123?

justinperkins · #4 03-20-2007, 03:46 PM

Maybe you've got a bad GP relay. Mine is bad, but not so bad that's it's causing starting problems. If a relay goes bad though, there's really no telling how it could malfunction. It could not turn off power to the GPs when it's supposed (causing premature GP failure) or have a short causing a greater draw than normal leading to symptoms that would make you think your battery is bad (this is the problem I am having).

I think your next step after replacing the bad GPs (if they are indeed bad) is to get your hands on a GP relay that is known to be working and swap it out.

BodhiBenz1987 · #5 03-20-2007, 04:05 PM

justin - I did a voltage check on the six pins at the relay box with the key turned on ... got 12v at each pin ... wouldn't that suggest the relay is OK, or is there more to it than that? Also tested the strap fuse and that was OK.

rrgrassi - my primary filter looks dirty ... I was just going to change it today, but put off the project. I don't think it can be anywhere near clogged enough to cause a no-start situation ... the car has been performing great. I had thought tank strainer, too, but it seems to me the car would be performing not-so-well in that scenario?

... Glad you like my drawing ... thanks! I'll bet I could draw a 123 ... been a while since I've picked up a pencil, but I doubt I've lost anything.

Only thing that could be hard would be if it were a dark-colored car ... the "shine" is very tough to do with colored pencils, moreso on a dark color. But, I'd be willing to try.

justinperkins · #6 03-20-2007, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BodhiBenz1987

justin - I did a voltage check on the six pins at the relay box with the key turned on ... got 12v at each pin ... wouldn't that suggest the relay is OK, or is there more to it than that? Also tested the strap fuse and that was OK.

rrgrassi - my primary filter looks dirty ... I was just going to change it today, but put off the project. I don't think it can be anywhere near clogged enough to cause a no-start situation ... the car has been performing great. I had thought tank strainer, too, but it seems to me the car would be performing not-so-well in that scenario?

... Glad you like my drawing ... thanks! I'll bet I could draw a 123 ... been a while since I've picked up a pencil, but I doubt I've lost anything.

Only thing that could be hard would be if it were a dark-colored car ... the "shine" is very tough to do with colored pencils, moreso on a dark color. But, I'd be willing to try.

I believe there is more to it than that. In both of the possible "bad relay" cases I mentioned above, you would be getting 12V at the pins as expected I believe.

I'm pretty sure my GP relay is bad because my battery is good and my GPs are good, but this is what happens for me:

1) Attach multimeter to battery so that you can watch the multimeter while turning the key on/off.
2) Get in the car and turn the key on to light the GPs, note the voltage drop and watch for a trickle of voltage back up.
3) With the key still in the on position, watch the multimeter and let the 30 seconds pass so you can hear your GP relay clicking off and also note the increase in voltage at the battery when this happens.
4) Turn the key off and then back on again, does the same voltage drop occur this time as noted in Step 2?

For me, it's not the same (Step 4) and I want to get my hands on a good GP relay so I can at least prove or disprove this belief.

Brian Carlton · #7 03-20-2007, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BodhiBenz1987

Then I tried to start it ... no go ... it's 55 degrees out! It seemed to me, and my indy agreed, that two bad plugs should not cause the car not to start when it is this warm out. He gave me some starter fluid and said to use a very little bit tomorrow to get the car started and bring it over to him.

One other thing ... car is low on fuel ... not down to reserve yet, but low. Could it be a fuel delivery issue? I know if that's the case it might become more problematic the lower the fuel level gets. Just wondering.

The answer to the first question depends on your starting technique. If you usually glow the system until the light goes out and then turn the key to "start", the procedure works fine in warmer weather and the engine will fire right off with six working plugs.

But, if you expect the 603 to fire right off using this technique with two bad glow plugs, it gets a bit dicey. It might go if the compression is very good...........it might not. Furthermore, it's possible that you've got more than two bad plugs.

If you wish to circumvent this issue, temporarily, glow the plugs for 35 seconds until the relay shuts down.............then immediately turn the key to start (NO DELAY). It should light off with a full glow cycle on four.

In any case..........DO NOT...........use ether on the 603. If you make a mistake on the amount, you risk serious damage to this engine. Far better to call a tow truck...........just isn't worth the risk.

With regard to low fuel, it's highly unlikely that this will prevent a start. However, I have noticed that the '86 will definitely lose power as the tank gets very close to empty. I'll bet it loses some fuel pressure due to a partially clogged strainer. But, you would have noticed this situation prior to this issue..........the vehicle would have felt sluggish when very low on fuel.

rrgrassi · #8 03-20-2007, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BodhiBenz1987

rrgrassi - my primary filter looks dirty ... I was just going to change it today, but put off the project. I don't think it can be anywhere near clogged enough to cause a no-start situation ... the car has been performing great. I had thought tank strainer, too, but it seems to me the car would be performing not-so-well in that scenario?

... Glad you like my drawing ... thanks! I'll bet I could draw a 123 ... been a while since I've picked up a pencil, but I doubt I've lost anything.

Only thing that could be hard would be if it were a dark-colored car ... the "shine" is very tough to do with colored pencils, moreso on a dark color. But, I'd be willing to try.

Change the filter as well. My car was getting hard to start, and I could not get much help with the hand primer either. Changed primary and secondary filters, and all became good again.

Check all the GP circuit like Justin advised.

My car is supposed to be midnight blue, so I'm saving my pennies to get her repainted to the original color. Right now it's orient red. Nice color also, but I like midnight blue better. So after a repaint, I'll pay you for a drawing of my car. No need to add shine.

BodhiBenz1987 · #9 03-20-2007, 07:43 PM

Thanks, all, for the advice. I am crossing my fingers it is just some bad plugs. I know for sure the 1 and 3 are bad, and it's certainly possible another one or two are shoddy ... there was another one (can't remember which one) that kind of bobbled between .9 and 1.2 ohms so maybe that was on the outs, too. Of course, I am sitting here at work trying to think of the most horrible possible thing it could be so I can worry myself into a frenzy ... I believe at this point I have "Munchausen syndrome by auto."

Thanks for the advice on the ether, Brian. It didn't sit well with my. My indy was very adament that I not use too much, to the point that it scared the ^$&% out of me. I know he knows what he's doing, but I think he may have overestimated my ability (or confidence) to use the perfect amount. He knows I'm pretty savvy, so I guess he figured it was OK. But, I think I am going to be a sissy about it (not always a bad thing, right?) and wait until Thursday to start this thing ... it will be only 40 degrees tomorrow and almost 70 Thursday ... no brainer. If it doesn't start then, I'm gonna take your tow-truck advice. My indy is only about 3 blocks from my parking lot, though ... so if anyone has a strong horse and a good harness ...

BodhiBenz1987 · #10 03-20-2007, 08:58 PM

One more Q: I know these starters can take a good deal of cranking ... but how long do you let it crank before deciding it just ain't gonna happen. I kind of feel like if it's not going after a few seconds, it's not going ... maybe I'm giving up too soon? What's the appropriate count before giving up on that particular go?

mespe · #11 03-20-2007, 10:45 PM

Replace those filters,,, my 300SD (617) will not idle if the primary is dirty,,, also makes it tough to start.

aersloat · #12 03-21-2007, 12:57 AM

I have noticed that the amount of fuel in the tank can make a difference in cold starts. It is a good idea to change your filters, but also try filling doing a few roundtrips to the diesel station in the Jeep and get at least 10 gallons in and see if it makes a difference. On that same note, if your tank is getting low and you park facing uphill you aren't doing yourself any favors.

greasybenz · #13 03-21-2007, 01:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Carlton

However, I have noticed that the '86 will definitely lose power as the tank gets very close to empty. I'll bet it loses some fuel pressure due to a partially clogged strainer. But, you would have noticed this situation prior to this issue..........the vehicle would have felt sluggish when very low on fuel.

Ive read that the engine being sluggish when on a low tank is due to a worn out and ready to go lift pump?
My 300D does the same, when nearing low tank it loses some power and idle gets a little rougher. I think it was reid (dieseldiehard) who was telling me it might be a wearing lift pump.

cant remember who told me or where i read it exactly.....

Angel · #14 03-21-2007, 02:45 AM

Re: how long to crank.

I am coming from a W123, but I have cranked it for more than 15 seconds before in the cold (on 3 of 4 GP's) and it started.
I am at the point where I can listed to the noise it makes while turning over to see if its worth continuing. Listen to the sound the engine makes if you hit the starter without letting it glow. Then listen to the engine after a good glow time - the engine sounds "smoother" (like the cylinder is firing but not hard enough to push the engine on its own). If starting is questionable, let it turn over for 5 or 10 seconds, see if the noise it makes changes, if not, then give up, it it starts turning over faster/smoother then keep the starter turning.

You 603 starter may not like this (most people with 240D's put 5cyl starters in them anyway...), but there is a sound that it makes.

I thought that Brian Carleton or someone put up instructions on how to start your diesel in cold weather/low battery/bad GP's and it went something like this-
2 glow cycles, (I do 3 if its quesitonable)
leave the starter turning until the battery dies or the engine starts- once you let up that GP heat has more chance to leave the engine where it is needed.

This is just what I've seen, on an older and smaller motor with fewer cylinders.

-John

Hit Man X · #15 03-21-2007, 04:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by justinperkins

Maybe you've got a bad GP relay. Mine is bad, but not so bad that's it's causing starting problems. If a relay goes bad though, there's really no telling how it could malfunction. It could not turn off power to the GPs when it's supposed (causing premature GP failure) or have a short causing a greater draw than normal leading to symptoms that would make you think your battery is bad (this is the problem I am having).

I think your next step after replacing the bad GPs (if they are indeed bad) is to get your hands on a GP relay that is known to be working and swap it out.

If I can recall where I placed it, you won't have that issue!