1983 240D WHEEL ALIGNMENT (new purchase) - Page 2 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

Yak · #16 05-11-2011, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickmay

<>
Since my ride height looks spot on, I am not sure that the rear sway bar links will make a major difference. When the shop reported back to me, they also relayed the following:
The guide rod is the caster adjustment. Sam said he did mark everything on the front end. Even so the alignment machine will pick up the caster specs and we adjust accordingly. Jay said the caster adjustment is at its full limit (all the way in) and it is still out of spec.
I guess they felt no need to report this if I did not say anything. They therefore, have MAX positive caster, which is hard to believe when the car has never been in an accident.

I am interested in seeing what spec they used on caster because of the following article reports that if the castor is too positive, the steering will be heavy and the steering wheel may kick when you hit a bump. I have thought that many bumps come a little too hard.

.

The guide rod can adjust caster if the UCA bushings are good. The UCAs help control the upper ball joint, the support rod works the lower BJ; caster is set by the angle between. If the guide rod is at its limit (which is very easy to see visually - is it screwed all the in?) then you may have a bad or misinstalled UCA. Or the tech is just getting it backwards. As described, something doesn't sound right.

Rear sway bar links? Cake, and cheap, too, as far as suspension repair: http://catalog.peachparts.com/ShopByVehicle.epc?q=1983-Mercedes--Benz---40d-Suspension&yearid=1983%40%401983&makeid=63%40%40MERCEDES+BENZ%40%40X&modelid=6143%3AED%7C10000129%3AMBC%7C1489%40%40240D&catid=241464%40%40Suspension&subcatid=241475@@Sway+Bar+Link+%2D+Rear&mode=PD

Zacharias · #17 05-11-2011, 10:54 PM

Thanks rickmay for the info.

When I went to the link you suggested, not only was it cheaper... it was FREE if it was a membership for a NA car. Only pay if you want sprinter and world car details.

Regrettably, however, it's an MBUSA site for US owners only. No provision for humble Canucks like myself to sign up. MB Canada doesn't have equivalent services.

cannot request illegal info on this site PMs sorry.

rickmay · #18 05-12-2011, 10:14 AM

Attached is my alignment printout. CASTER for my car is supposed to be at 8 degrees 45' (+30',-30') positive. It reads 5.1 and 6.9 positive.

The guide rod is what adjusts the CASTER. What makes no sense to me whatsoever is the adjustment itself (based on what I saw). If you look at the GUIDEROD picture (bottom entry, first page of this thread), the guide rod is attached to 5, the lower control arm. The lower control arm is attached to the bottom of the steering knuckle (35). The top of the steering knuckle is attached to the upper control arm (58) which is attached to the body.

IT SEEMS TO ME THAT SINCE THE UPPER CONTROL ARM IS FIXED TO THE BODY (and torsion bar) THAT WHEN YOU INCREASE THE LENGTH OF THE GUIDE ROD IT WOULD PUSH STEERING KNUCKLE FORWARD AT THE BOTTOM CAUSING IT TO LEAN BACK FURTHER. (increasing positive caster). When we did this, just the opposite happened.

When we started, the guide rod was as short as it possibly could be with no threads showing and all the way up to the mount. When we increased the length of the guide rod, it caused the caster to go down to a less positive number. We increased the length of the guide rod to the point it reached 2.0 positive (5.6 to 2.0). The mechanic stopped there, as he thought going any further would be futile (he was doing the work, after all).

YAK, the rod is all the way in

ARMY, everything new except springs, steering knuckle and LCA, but they have new bushings, so the bushings and connections on the upper control arms are all new. Since there is a left and right control arm, and since they are hard to install to begin with, is it even possible to put in backwards....I doubt it. I will look though. And when I can, I will check to see if the TORSION bar is being pulled away from the body.

DOES ANYONE KNOW IF INCREASING THE LENGTH OF THE GUIDE ROD (exposing more threads on its adjustment end) IS SUPPOSED TO INCREASE POSITIVE CASTER OR MAKE IT GO THE OTHER WAY, TOWARD NEGATIVE CASTER?

Stretch · #19 05-12-2011, 10:26 AM

If you make that rod longer - and the torsion bar mounts aren't moving forward with it (for example) then you'll get positive caster - however as I've said before you'll also be changing the camber ever so slightly as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caster_angle

Can you re-attach your attachment? I can't read it

Stretch · #20 05-12-2011, 01:45 PM

More information for you.

You can get a quick idea of the position of the front wheel by measuring the wheelbase.

When I adjusted my suspension I got a length that was longer than the book specification - I checked at the local dealer and the chief mechanic told me that that wasn't a problem and that there isn't a tolerance on this value

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/showpost.php?p=2512558&postcount=16

If you consider a view looking down onto the brake support / LCA / chassis you can see that it is a triangular form. If the eccentric pin on the LCA is tucked in towards the engine you will get a shorter length to that part of the triangle. If you rotate this eccentric pin by about 180 degrees you could make that length of the triangle longer. This will change the camber but at the same time it ever so slightly alters the castor and you may then be able to reach the prescribed caster adjustment limits by adjusting the brake stay.

rickmay · #21 05-12-2011, 05:09 PM

There is (was) little wrong with my car, and I doubt that there is (was) anything wrong with the $25,000, 1 year old Hunter alignment platform.

All of the adjustments are static, except for the caster. The young man that did the alignment DID NOT KNOW THAT HE HAD TO "SWEEP" THE WHEELS (turn them left and then right) FOR EVERY CASTER CHANGE HE MADE, so that the machine could read the setting. So, he was 3+ degrees off on the left wheel, and a little less on the right. How do I get so lucky?

On newer cars, you apparently don't have to do this constant sweep, but on 30 year old GEMS, a sweep must be done every time you change caster. Even with this, Hunter does not meet Mercedes standards, as the 123.123 chassis has a positive caster of 8 degress 45 minutes, with 30' plus, minus (putting Mercedes range from 8-15' to 8-75'). Hunter's computer puts the range from 8 to 9.

I spent two hours under the car to confirm that LENGTHENING the guide rod (you will be exposing more threads by doing this), does in fact, increase the caster angle, as in more positive. And since everything is put together correctly, and the upper control arm and torsion bar are firm, the car should have a proper alignment tomorrow. I HOPE THAT FIXES THE WHEELS, SO THEY LEAN ABOUT THE SAME IN SLOW, TIGHT TURNS.

And to my new friend ZACHARIAS (if you are going to make friends, make them big friends), too bad about the EPC net. But then again, with a 25% VAT, I would be a "grump" too. I thought about fixiing up my MGB and buying a new high mileage car, but God and/or the internet led me to my 1983 240D, and dump the MG and my Marquis. The target here is to get 40 MPG on the road. Now that I flushed the tank, maybe new Monark nozzles and a valve adjustment will put me close. Thx all. Maybe one more update after tomorrow.

AND TO ALL THAT HELPED, I learned something that will interest you all. According to MB 240D specs, injectors are set to "pop" somewhere around 1675 to 1775 PSI. DON'T BUY BOSCH INJECTORS. I called Bosch technical support, and they told me that their rebuilds (that is what the sell, only, I believe) 240D injectors are set at 1450 PSI, THE VERY MINIMUM SPEC FOR MY CAR. Learn how to rebuild your own using Monarks set at about 16-1650 PSI, which is suitable for a car with decent compression. YOU NEED TO VERIFY THIS FOR YOUR CAR.

TO SUMMARIZE:

$7500 Mercedes 240D with fixes -------------------$21,000 Hyundai
sales tax $240 -------------------------------------sales tax $1,600
$700 insurance/yr. ($11,000 value on car) ----------$900/ year
that's about $15,000 plus of free diesel I will be 81 in 15 years
no emissions testing -------------------------------testing every 2 years
virtually computerless -----------------------------20 ? computers to fail
$65 tires ------------------------------------------$90 tires
a tank ---------------------------------------------a tin can
room for big boys--------------------------------- a girls car / tiny seats
a chick magnet (don't tell wife) ---------------magnet in backwards, here

AND TO THOSE WHO FOLLOW TOO CLOSELY, suck my burned diesel fuel (have to find a way to add smoke and mustard gas)

Yak · #22 05-12-2011, 10:02 PM

Basic starting point for the guide is 14 mm from the hexagon nut to the edge of the guide rod. Most of the starting measurements for the front end are in the Factory Service Manual. When I rebuilt mine, I just set everything to the factory default: tie rod length, drag link, supporting rod, eccentric bolt. These all have "factory neutral" settings from which to adjust. The guide rod is 14 mm. There's even a pic of the "self-made tool" to start with.

http://www.circletrack.com/chassistech/ctrp_0801_caster_camber_settings/photo_02.html

The upper ball joint on the UCA is behind the lower ball joint, which is near coincident with the spindle, so as you discovered, moving it forward should increase caster.

FYI: the UCA isn't attached to the frame, there's some fat rubber bushings in there that go bad. That's why I asked. If the top is wiggling around on old rubber, then the caster can't get set. Since yours are new, not an issue.

Jumping right into alignment specs on a W123 is a bold move. No one even used the term "spreader bar."

Stretch · #23 05-13-2011, 02:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yak

...
Jumping right into alignment specs on a W123 is a bold move. No one even used the term "spreader bar."

I did check post #13!

You can lead a horse to water...

rickmay · #24 05-13-2011, 02:50 PM

FRONT END, DONE.

Caster 8.2 degrees, positive, which is the high end of the Mercedes spec. All else OK

Wheels now lean together in a tight turn.

Rides better.

Takes bumps better.

No wandering at 130 Km/h, although steering box more noticeable at the speed. My norm on the highway is 55-60 MPH. This is where I hope to find 40 MPG.

Steering box 100% tighter, although more loose than I would prefer. This I don't understand, but it is much better at non-highway speeds.

I know my suspension is in here somewhere.

Thanks all! and, look for me in the brake department.

Skippy · #25 05-13-2011, 06:08 PM

40 mpg from a 240D is not going to happen.

rickmay · #26 05-14-2011, 12:26 PM

Skippy, I have lived my whole life adopting the lessons from many learned quotes, some anonymous, some by great people. It is never easy to do, and I had to shed the ways of my parents in this one regard.

It is one way I have 'interfered' with my daughter's life, however. When she was 5, we were at the swimming pool, and she was taking swimming lessons that summer. So, I said to her, let's see you swim to the other side of the pool (about 100'). She said, it's too far, daddy. I told her that I would give her a quarter if she did it, so off she went thru a whole mess of kids. When she got to the other side, I was standing there, and I said, I will give you another quarter to swim back, again. With no hesitation, off she went again. I made that trip 8 times, and she 'earned' two bucks. This last time she looked up to me, and said, I am tired. I looked into her big babby blue eyes, and said, you told me one lap was too far, and you swam eight laps. She got this huge smile on her face, and I told her please don't tell me something is "too far" or "too hard," again. You can do it, you can do anything you set your mind to. While there have been other "lessons" along the way on motivation and many other things, I have never had to repeat that particular one. I am glad, as I don't believe in paying children to do something that is already expected.

So, back to Mercedes. I had a 1980 300D, that I bought off the show room floor. After, about a year, I tested it for mileage on a long trip. Locked in at 55 MPH, the car got 38 MPG.

I fully do not know what to expect with this 240D, as I have had it for only 2 months. I do know these facts, however. When I drove it from Miami in March, I was blessed with 30 MPG. This despite, one severely damaged wheel bearing, a front end that needed every part replaced, front tires with 3/8" of steel shining its way and a gas (oops, fuel) tank that was so polluted that the filter screen in the tank was entirely coated with the black gunk. When I got home, in the ensuing days, it was apparent that the car was not happy. The prefilter was black and the engine put a black mess on my floor.

So, here we are today. I pulled the gas tank, and flushed it with a citrus degreaser followed by another new degreaser from the folks who do WD 40. I flushed the fuel lines, replaced the rubber hoses, fuel filters and did a diesel purge. I can't tell you how much better it is doing now. I am sure I would be +30 on a road trip. And, I have a lot to do yet. You can inspect the tank by removing the fuel sending unit under the safety kit on the rear deck. I used one of those plumbers wrenchs (not a pipe wrench) that they use under sinks and tubs. The wrench is usually silver in color, their jaws are parallel and go from 0" to over 2" You can inspect the tank by removing the first aid kit and fuel sending unit.

I can tell the car needs a valve adjustment, as the sounds of the valves are not uniform. If you listen to these things, they talk to you. Put your head near the engine in about eight places on both sides. Listen with both ears, listen with the right, and then the left ear. If you hear large variations in the sounds, you need an adjustment for sure (or something else). In my case, none has been done in at least 4 years. I need to do one, and then another diesel purge. Then, in 500 miles, I will do another. Why do this? Knowing that this thing has not received all the care, I know it has deposits around the valves. At this point, you can adjust it every 12 months, but each time you are starting with a car that has excessive deposits. If you adjust a second time after 500 miles, you will be starting with a much cleaner engine when you reach the next year. It will hold proper adjustment longer, also. I will be checking the timing chain here.

I have not done a compression check on the car at this point, as it should be done after the valves are adjusted at least once. As a matter of practice, anyone that buys one of these cars should do the double valve adjustment if you aren't provided with records showing regular valve adjustments. I thought the compression was OK because of what little garbage was coming out of the exhaust with clean filters, and the fact that I got 30 MPG.

I have decided to use all synthetic oils in this car, despite Mercedes saying to use their oils. The fact is that Mercedes wants all the old cars to fail, so they can sell you a new one. Believe it or not, even they are now into disposable autos. SEE ATTACMENT: (sorry Skippy, but WORD chose the file name, and I went with it.) Mercedes lost a $32 million dollar law suit to consumers for not informing them that they should use synthetic motor oil. Synthetics, I am learning are more slippery, they do a better job of cleaning an engine (you don't think there are deposits on the rings and elsewhere in a 28-30 year old car?). Synthetics will suspend more junk and for longer. It is a miserable mistake not to use them in your benz. I am going to use Amsoil in the engine, trans and steering, and Redline for the differential. You can go to the Amsoil website, but in your model, and it will tell what oils to use. If they don't have a reccommendation, as in my differential, that is why I am using Redline there.

When I do the compression check, I am going to check the injectors. I cannot believe that they are in top condition. I also encourage everyone (who hasn't) to read what I found out about Bosch rebuilds, above, to do so)

And last, but not least, injection timing, which I may have done or may not. We are doing well, and I want to make sure that we don't screw it up. I will reason that out when I get there.

SO, THERE IT IS. There are a half dozen adjustments or more above that will increase the mileage and performance. I could stop today, as the car is running "great." I may repeat absolutely everything in a year, and I know I will be at this for another year, but if I don't reach 40 MPG, it won't for the lack of trying.

IF ANYONE HAS ANY OTHER IDEAS AS TO HOW TO INCREASE MY MILEAGE, I AM MOST INTERESTED IN HEARING ABOUT IT.

Now, if you read this far, I am going to leave you with some words to read and consider..... as they are especially appropriate in the world in which we currently live.

This I have done…

I do not choose to be a common man.

It is my right to be uncommon -- if I can.

I seek opportunity -- not security.

I do not wish to be kept a citizen, humbled and dulled by having the state look after me.

I want to take the calculated risk; to dream and to build, and to fail and to succeed.

I refuse to barter incentive for dole.

I prefer the challenges of life to the guaranteed existence; the thrill of fulfillment to the stale calm of utopia.

I will not trade freedom for beneficence nor my dignity for a handout.

I will never cower before my master nor bend to any threat.

It is my heritage to stand erect, proud and unafraid; to think and act for myself, enjoy the benefits of my creations and to face the world boldly and say: "This I have done…."

George S. Mays

JHZR2 · #27 05-14-2011, 03:02 PM

Rickmay,

I appreciate your Pioneering and can-do attitude. Your commentary about synthetics is reasonable. However your commentary about MB essentially sabotaging their owners by not running syn is simply not true. The service interval paradigm was changing substantially, and in correct knowledge was abundant. We have since found that with th right lubricant, extended intervals and improved economis with consistent service life is achievable. Of course most of this capability has been due to the widespread use of syn oils, but even conventionals work well if dealt with properly.

There are lots of misconceptions on both sides of the maintenance fence. Conventionals work, tried and true. A million miles on conventional is more than doable. Syn buys advantages at high and low temperatures and some other conditions. Doing more maintenance, being truly anal about it, and using components with more headroom in terms of quality or capability always pays dividends, though sometimes not necessary or notable even in time...

rickmay · #28 05-14-2011, 04:03 PM

Do you work for Mercedes? I don't want to sound snippy, but it is a fair question. I also didn't intend to open a can of worms.

The court said it was true and Mercedes paid $34 million over this. But there other things of note. Mercedes used to carry every part for every car they ever made, and they no longer do that. They now charge $550 for the door latch box inside my door. They want you and me to give up on our old cars, so they can sell us a new one.

What isn't understood is how cheaply many of the manufacturers are able to build their cars. They are a business and getting more sophisticated, and they have changed course on us. The car companies have pushed the environmental stuff, not the government, so the manufacturers can sell you a more expensive item, and get to repair it more often. If Mercedes car lists for $50,000, their cost is probably half that or less. In years gone by most people bought their Mercedes, and today, over 70% now lease. The manufacturers push this, because they know they have gotten their money out of the deal in four or five years. It is fast becoming a disposable car, and we will see the resale drop even faster as time goes on. They are addiing and changing the technology so fast and so often, they know that mechanics won't be able to keep up. In the alternative, if a $1200 computer board (have you seen how many computers are in the cars today?) goes bad, it is bad for the consumer. They don't add to the reliability, they only add to profit. Manufacturers have very limited exposure, and they are controlling the deal more than ever. Believe me when I say they are doing everything necessary to raise their profit, and at our expense.

I should also add that I called my local dealer, and asked parts and service what oils I should use. They are still pushing the same outdated oil technology as in my user manual. Why are they doing that?

I also ask this question. Why can I not buy a 1.4 liter Mercedes diesel engine auto in this country for less than $20,000 that gets 50+ MPG? The answer: the profit is much smaller....... same for all car manufacturers. That seems environmentally more responsible than a gas guzzler.

Another question. The government and the car manufacturers tell you and me to be environmentally responsible, yet they want to turn over more cars for profit. That doesn't seem environmentally responsible. Or McDonalds using plastic cups. These guys could give a hoot about green, because like you and me, they know that Al Gore is the biggest liar on earth.

rickmay · #29 05-27-2011, 10:40 PM

Before I talk mileage, I would like to say that I have read some of my posts, and they have been a little strong worded. Not my intent, and not really me. I hope I haven't raised too many eyebrows.

So, far, I haven't seen a lot of confessions about FUEL MILEAGE (on any website), but I bought my 240D with the hopes of good mileage. Earlier I said, the quest was to hit 40MPG, and it is not in me to say that I may not make it. I don't have enough information, yet, to rule this out.

I have seen a number of postings on a number of websites, where people wanted to know what kind of mileage is possible on these cars. I have two responses, as I had a new 1980 300D which was pushing 38 MPG at 55 MPH, strictly highway driving (this was 1981).

So, let's get into response number 2. And now I have this car, and I would report this. I just drove 660 miles on 23.95 gallons. I slowly filled the tank, so that I could get it to 3" from the top of the neck on the tank. Of those miles, 380 (57.5%) were driven around town. In many cases, it meant driving a mile to the grocery, and then returning. I did four road trips for which I kept track of the mileage. 80 miles of the last run (moving my kid), I had the car loaded with clothes, suitcases, and a single matress up on the top of the car (last time I do that). Also, for the young people reading this, never put a matress on the roof of a MB, unless you open the sunroof. I learned this lesson in the 1980s. So, with 57% local driving, and 43% highway, the car delivered 27.6 MPG. Now, I don't know how to figure this in, but I was trouble- shooting the vacuum system, and the car idled about a half hour doing this (in other words, there were no miles driven when counting MPG), and it did detract from the mileage somewhat. At 27.5 - 28 MPG combined, my 300D did not do that. I also took the car to 85+ MPH several times to blow it out, and see if it held together. I have not been bending over-board for mileage, but this is where I am. I would also like to say that when I bought the car, mapquest.com said my trip home was 1400 miles (MIAMI / CHICAGO, that is also what my odometer said it was.

At this point there are many things to consider. I still haven't done a compression check, but I know the engine is "tight." There is a guy named Russell, online, who shows how to do a valve adjustment, and he suggests using a wrench and turning the nut on the steering pump (to rotate the engine). Well, I tried that to prepare for the valve adjustment. I couldn't come anywhere near turning this engine, not even with one hand on the wrench and the other tugging on the belt. I figure the compression must, overall, be quite good. I need to adjust the valves, as I know it has been a long time.

That leaves injectors. I called Bosch, and they tell me that they rebuild the injectors so they OPEN at 100 bar, or 1450 PSI. This makes no sense to me, as Mercedes says the minimum they want is 1450. Why build an injector to minimum spec? I see these Monark injectors, and people say they are better than the Bosch injector because Bosch is essentially rebuilding injectors using a 30+ year old nozzle design. 1500 PSI might make sense with a "tired" engine. I don't know.

I WANT 40 MPG for highway driving. NO, I WANT TO BEAT THAT. I am not changing my tune, and more is better. Anyone who read paragraph two above, and thought I had my doubts, just plain does not know me. Any help, any idea, will be greatly appreciated. I will pass on my results to everyone who reads this thread. It may take me another year or more to get the most out of this car, but I am not giving up, I am moving forward. Anyone that wants the best MPG should continue to watch this thread. Why?

There are unanswered questions here. Monark nozzles must be good, but do they give the best MPG? I don't know. Are there other choices for nozzles? I don't know. I am not feeling good about Bosch's solution, or the lack, thereof. Is there a way to improve any of these nozzles? I don't know. But, I am going to try to find these answers. I have questions like this. If you increase the PSI that an injector POPS, does that, in effect, delay timing? I don't know. Think about it. If one injector POPS at 1450, and one is set to POP at 1700, this would seem to delay detonation. Seems like common sense to me. Can an injector be set to deliver less fuel into the cylinder, thereby increasing MPG? I don't know. But ask yourself this. If the injector is set to POP at 1700 PSI, and not 1450, would it not need less fuel to detonate at the higher pressure? I don't know, but I would like to find the answer to this question, as well as others stated. We now have 30 year old engines. Some have compression of 200 PSI, and some are 275, 300, and maybe 350+. I think most would like to know how to adjust our engines given the amount of life (compression) left in them. We like these cars. It doesn't cost more to know these answers. I am sure Mercedes could help. We just need the right person there who can jump on my Don Quixote bandwagon to the Road of Enlightenment (Sean Connery, "father to Indiana Jones").

So, I add this. It is another PMA. It was written by my good friend, anonymous. It matters not who wrote it, because when you are done reading it, you will know everyone can profit by it. So, one more PMA......

Persistence

Nothing in the world can
Take the place of persistence.

Tallent will not;
nothing is more common
than unsuccessfule men and women with talent.

Genius will not;
Unrewarded genius is almost a proverb.

Education will not;
The world is filled with educated derelicts.

Persistence and determination alone
Are omnipotent. The slogan, "Press on."
has solved and always will solve
the problems of the human race.

My third employer passed these on to me on many occasions (the early 1970s). I saved every one of them, and once in a while I still read them. Save them and read them from time to time.

Don Quixote's bandwagon is a big one, and there is room for all. Please help me find the answers. Please help all of us find the answers. Corny, but true, BUT also worth the effort.

Rick

barry123400 · #30 05-27-2011, 11:13 PM

Well long experience on this model by many owners basically means forty miles per gallon is not in the cards unfortunatly.

You can check the fuel pressure at the base of the injection pump. Or better yet read the thread on it under relief valve pressure. There may be a mile or two there per gallon. You should do this anyways as there may be long term damages running sub standard low pressure. Especially on the 616 engine.

I do agree that a modern diesel does much better. Part of this is the want and need for efficiency was not needed as much back when these cars where newer. Fuel was also fairly cheap.

I personally have looked many places on this engine design and only can hope you will find some way that has been missed to increase fuel milage. One of the very elusive five speed transmissions makes it a better car for general usage in my opinion.