Cut open Mann PF1055 - Page 3 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

JHZR2 · #31 05-03-2019, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diesel911

If the Filter Company does not know how well the upper/bypass section of their Filters is working why would we.

But, some of it is common sense. Speculate which would work better. Tightly packed pure Cotton or Cotton waste with crud mixed in (tightly packed or not tightly packed)?

I agree on the question of efficacy of the bypass. I’d argue that filtration is not rocket science, but filled with nuance. Bypass filters are made of media similar to, sometimes exactly, of toilet paper rolls. It’s the dense, slow, tortuous path that stops dispersed particles, while the liquid is able to flow around.

Again, this isn’t a turbulent flow through it.

Frankly, the question of cotton or cotton with crud mixed in, when the crud is sufficiently large to be easily trapped by small holes and landscape fabric, makes it irrelevant. Is it less tight pack cotton? Yes. Is there a value proposition argument there? Sure. But does it have an effect on the tortuous path for depth filtering? Not really.

JHZR2 · #32 05-03-2019, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OM617YOTA

Once again, the issue is NOT that cotton field mowings are being used as a filter element. Sticks and rocks and bug carcasses and mouse droppings, bring it on. Cheap + works = good for me.

The issue is two fold:

1.) The filters don't keep that garbage in the filter cartridge, even the big chunks. It's allowed to leak out and into the oil system. Just shaking the filter let stuff fall out.

2.) All oil must pass through the oil pump before it gets to the filter, so the pump is pumping un-filtered oil from the pan, right where the bypass filter is dumping all that garbage.

Millions of engines going billions(?) of miles on these filters aside, I will not intentionally dump contaminants into my oil and oil pump.

The only filters I'll use are Baldwin P102 / Hastings LF380, or the Fram filter mentioned previously if I come across one at a reasonable price. Probably the only time I'd ever willingly buy Fram anything.

I’ve never seen “that garbage” released from a filter. If there is a case of that, I’d be interested to know, and I’ll go home and shake some filters. I’ve never seen it.

Why? Again, same basic premise. Large items are easy to filter out using minimal screen/media/etc. Large bits don’t squeeze out of tiny holes.

And that cotton fluff is tenacious. I had to use a screwdriver to release some. It has a firm grasp on itself and everything in there. The only element that can pass through is the liquid oil. It’s not letting go of the entrained sticks and twigs.

So if one feels cheated for their cotton not looking like pristine white cotton balls, got it. But it’s not an issue for filtration.

JHZR2 · #33 05-03-2019, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by strelnik

Citroen, in some vehicles, has permanent filters made of steel and copper mesh which need to be cleaned by gasoline until they are pristine. Does it cost more? Yes. But there are rarely complaints about dirty oil unless the owner never cleans the filter.

The paper and crapola in the filter elements kinda makes you wonder a little bit about that " DAS BESTE ODER NICHTS - the best or nothing! ! slogan, doesn't it?

I'm waiting for Benz to go to filters made out of toilet paper rolls, like you used to see in the 1950s Popular Mechanics magazines.

A metal mesh screen will have far less holding capacity and worse flow than a pleated media element. If we were talking about that part of the filter...

Actually, there’s good analytical basis of the efficacy of the toilet paper roll filters in capturing particles. And the cotton in here is merely a variation on that exact theme.

spock505 · #34 05-03-2019, 03:10 PM

Emailed MANN Europe with a link to this thread, would be good to get some feedback - will keep you posted.

chronometers · #35 05-03-2019, 03:35 PM

I spoke to a Customer Service Rep. at Mann-hummel. The database that she had access too did not show the specific media used within the filter. She did comment that old style by-pass filters did use raw cotton back in the day.

I guess it met specs and did the job it was designed to do.

OM617YOTA · #36 05-03-2019, 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHZR2

I’ve never seen “that garbage” released from a filter. If there is a case of that, I’d be interested to know, and I’ll go home and shake some filters. I’ve never seen it.

Why? Again, same basic premise. Large items are easy to filter out using minimal screen/media/etc. Large bits don’t squeeze out of tiny holes.

And that cotton fluff is tenacious. I had to use a screwdriver to release some. It has a firm grasp on itself and everything in there. The only element that can pass through is the liquid oil. It’s not letting go of the entrained sticks and twigs.

So if one feels cheated for their cotton not looking like pristine white cotton balls, got it. But it’s not an issue for filtration.

Search oil filters on the forum, the pics are out there. Some I took, plus others. These threads come up often enough, I should keep the links handy.

Your premise is sound, if the crap stays in the filter then I don't care if it's there either. It's the execution that's faulty, the filters are frequently construction in such a way that allows the crap out of the filter. Documented cases exist. I don't mean entire sticks or twigs coming out, I mean fine sand-like material - I don't want that going through my oil pump either.

JHZR2 · #37 05-03-2019, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OM617YOTA

Search oil filters on the forum, the pics are out there. Some I took, plus others. These threads come up often enough, I should keep the links handy.

Your premise is sound, if the crap stays in the filter then I don't care if it's there either. It's the execution that's faulty, the filters are frequently construction in such a way that allows the crap out of the filter. Documented cases exist. I don't mean entire sticks or twigs coming out, I mean fine sand-like material - I don't want that going through my oil pump either.

Interesting. I’m going to go shake some filters this weekend

Maximan1 · #38 05-03-2019, 05:43 PM

I know not everyone likes K&N on these forums, but they do have a r&d product request form that you can fill out. Never used a canister from them before, but their spin on filters were great, I use them exclusively.

Maybe if a bunch of us filled out the form, we could get another manufacturer making filters for these...just a thought.

Here is the link for the form.

spock505 · #39 05-03-2019, 05:49 PM

Wandering slightly (a lot) off topic, the oil centrifuges always seemed like a good idea - UK Defender has them fitted, not sure if it's supplements main filter or not.

US trucks have them too, again not sure if that's their only filtration or in addition to help extend oil change intervals.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T501wnNVr70

Garagefull · #40 05-03-2019, 06:41 PM

Coconut hulls..We have to filter out sample intake stream for hydrocarbon analysis where I am employed. The media shown in those pictures looks identical. I guess it it has an incredible amount of surface area.

Diesel911 · #41 05-03-2019, 11:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maximan1

I know not everyone likes K&N on these forums, but they do have a r&d product request form that you can fill out. Never used a canister from them before, but their spin on filters were great, I use them exclusively.

Maybe if a bunch of us filled out the form, we could get another manufacturer making filters for these...just a thought.

Here is the link for the form.

I last had a Frantz (toilet Paper) bypass Oil filter on my car but removed it about 2 years ago and never re-installed it (never got around to changing the Toilet Paper or outing on the new hoses that were needed). I also experimented with some others one that I made.
The problem is the cost of having the Oil analyzed is greater then an Oil change so I had no evidence that the Bypass Oil filter did anything or not.

Adding a bypass oil filter was my method of dealing with the filter issue. I have several types of Oil Filters for my Mercedes and will use all of them over time.

The Oil that goes into my bypass Oil system first goes through the Mercedes Oil Filter bypass section. That means what you are going to see in the blow up pic of what is a portion of a string wound filter element I made a housing for caught what the Mercedes bypass section did not catch.
The picture was taken After I drained the filter element of Oil for over 1 hours and the filter appears to have a soft coating of something.

97 SL320 · #42 05-04-2019, 09:56 AM

One problem with the toilet paper filters is that toilet paper is designed to fall apart when in contact with water. A paper towel roll would be better. Motor Guard makes a TP roll filter for air lines.

Diesel911 · #43 05-04-2019, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 97 SL320

One problem with the toilet paper filters is that toilet paper is designed to fall apart when in contact with water. A paper towel roll would be better. Motor Guard makes a TP roll filter for air lines.

But the fact is hot oil does not cause them to fall apart.

2 things. If you got Water/Coolant in your Oil you have a serious issue just because of the water/coolant.

Next like all of the bypass oil filters I have seen the Oil goes back to the Oil pen even if it drips back into say a valve cover. The Oil goes back to pan normally by way of a skinny hose. (I used1/4" ID hose.)

That means if any toilet paper came loose it would likely plug up the hose before it gets to the Oil Pan. Also the Frantz Filter has a screen inside of it to prevent movement of the Toilet Paper.

That means the Oil has to be pulled through the Screen before it goes into the Oil Pump. In order to be pulled through the screen they would need to be tiny bits.
The tiny bits would pass through the Oil pump and get caught in the full flow filter.
The rest is how likely you think it is possible to plug up the screen.

I don't know if they are still around but there is a company that has a filter that uses as many as 3 rolls of paper towels. It caters Trucks and heavy duty equipment to include the filtering of hydraulic fluid.

97 SL320 · #44 05-04-2019, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diesel911

But the fact is hot oil does not cause them to fall apart.

If you got Water/Coolant in your Oil you have a serious issue just because of the water/coolant.

Short trips / parking a humid environment can load oil with moisture, I'm not using an element that can fall apart when there are so many real filter options.

One major filter manufacturer had a problem with element disintegration due to some sort of manufacturing problem. Fuzz from the element would end up clogging piston oiler / cooler nozzles. Remember, when oil is cold the full flow filter is bypassed because of too much filter restriction so fuzz from the TP element could make it's way past the main element.

Old farm tractors / 50's car engines used bypass filters, I'd find a housing and run from there or even research low micron a spin on hydraulic return filter to polish the oil.

Diesel911 · #45 05-04-2019, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 97 SL320

Short trips / parking a humid environment can load oil with moisture, I'm not using an element that can fall apart when there are so many real filter options.

One major filter manufacturer had a problem with element disintegration due to some sort of manufacturing problem. Fuzz from the element would end up clogging piston oiler / cooler nozzles. Remember, when oil is cold the full flow filter is bypassed because of too much filter restriction so fuzz from the TP element could make it's way past the main element.

Old farm tractors / 50's car engines used bypass filters, I'd find a housing and run from there or even research low micron a spin on hydraulic return filter to polish the oil.

Small amounts of water/coolant go to the bottom of the Pan and or evaporate due to the hot oil and go through the blow-by system.

Your choice and your opinion. All of that has been argued over since people started making filter housings that used Toilet paper.

Here is a hoot for you. One of the companies that made oil filter housings using Toilet Paper is Motor Guard. People found out that they could use the Motor Guard's to filter out the moisture from the air used on welding units where compressed air or moisture carrying gasses are used. I will get back to that.

The founder of the Motor Guard filters got tired of the baseless arguments about his filter being used as an Oil filter and not only stopped selling them as Oil filters; modified the insides of the filter to use plastic parts that would not take the hot oil. Since then they have been marketed as marketed exclusively as moisture filters. But, he kept the Motor Guard name.

Pics for fun: First one is the Box of a Motor Guard Oil filter.

I had bought a few Frantz Oil Filters (I think I also have 2 Motor Guards) and also (for the man who has everything) a Deluxe Frantz Oil Filter that has the Toilet Paper roll inside and ready to go as a separate throw away element. You don't have to go through the work of removing and installing the Toilet Paper roll which is kind of messy.

I believe the mess of changing the TP roll and installing a new one is why people later disconnect them. I know that played a roll on why I did not put mine back on.

Also one of the Frantz Filters that I bought appeared to have been used to filter WVO. WVO has water in it. I am guessing that WVO is too thick to pass through the filter without heating it.