This was hanging at my University... - Page 6 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

aklim · #76 03-24-2005, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kamil

I didn't think this tread would go this far so I had alot of reading to do. Since you guys are on the topic of affirmative action I will tell you that I kind of like it....

Rutgers has two major campuses which are located in Newark and New Brunswick. Newark has about 3k students and New Brunswick has about 15k I believe. The one that I attend in Newark, NJ is the most diverse school in the country. The one thing I like about it is that it is really tough and there just aren't too many students that can compete with me in class. Most people in my classes do not take school work too seriously probably because they are not paying for it out of their own pockets. As I am typing this I am taking a break from studying since I am paying the full amount out of my own pocket which is about 10k a year with books. Professors are really good with most of them being doctors that graduated from various prestigious schools around the country. Just to give you an example of how people do not care.....My last Micro-Economics exam only 4 people out of 100 got an A (I was one of them).

I just don't know what is wrong with people in my school but like I said "It is all about competition."

I don't follow. What has AA got to do with the situation you described?

Botnst · #77 03-24-2005, 02:06 PM

Okay, I'm going to go against my general belief of government and propose a weak defense of AA.

I believe that majority, but not a large majority, of people in the USA at this time believe that merit alone should be rewarded. Most people don't give a flip about skin color as long as the job gets done. Most of us celebrate people who do well by their own merit. It wont be too far in the future before we have a non-anglo president because it just takes a majority of VOTERS to be swayed by a good speech, attractive appearance and lots of money. We have proven that winning combination for several generations. A shift in pigmentation is not far off.

However, there is a large minority of people who do not want non-anglos to succeed. Many of them will do whatever it takes to prevent non-anglo success. Laws against that behavior are strong and vigorously enforced. But guess what: behavior is awfully hard to enforce legally if it is not understood morally. And people who morally believe in anglo superiority do not consider discrimination and bigotry as immoral.

Yes I know, bigotry is not limited to white people. But white people are in teh majority and also have the most wealth and power. So white bigotry is much more venemous for those reasons alone.

So I believe that until a whole bunch of old farts from my generation finally die-off, there needs to be some way to give deserving poor minorities an extra boost.

I agree it is unfair and is unconstitutional and causes resentment to maintain AA. The sooner we get rid of it the better. But not yet. Get the folks 55 and up into retirement or dead and there will be no reason to hang onto those laws.

B

aklim · #78 03-24-2005, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

However, there is a large minority of people who do not want non-anglos to succeed. Many of them will do whatever it takes to prevent non-anglo success. Laws against that behavior are strong and vigorously enforced. But guess what: behavior is awfully hard to enforce legally if it is not understood morally. And people who morally believe in anglo superiority do not consider discrimination and bigotry as immoral.

So I believe that until a whole bunch of old farts from my generation finally die-off, there needs to be some way to give deserving poor minorities an extra boost.

I agree it is unfair and is unconstitutional and causes resentment to maintain AA. The sooner we get rid of it the better. But not yet. Get the folks 55 and up into retirement or dead and there will be no reason to hang onto those laws.

B

If you believe that, we must never get rid of AA because there will always be a minoroty that doesn't want them to succeed. Morality doesn't mean much in this world, or hadn't you noticed. Just a "feel good" word to justify some action or console oneself on why something was not able to be done, IMO. Go look at the sports teams. Is that representative of USA? I think not but you tell me. How did that happen? I suppose because some black people were such a bunch of lamebrains that sports was all they could possibly do and thus the NFL was created, I suppose? They were more black way back when before other institutes became integrated. Why? Because some of these black numbskulls had something shocking. TALENT. More and more came in because the talent couldn't be ignored. Talent never can be ignored for long. Sure, I can have my all white team but if that doesn't win on Sunday, my job is going to become endangered.

Read your last 2 sentences. See what you have forgotten? I do. By waiting for the old geezers to retire, you are growing more people with these ideas. As such, it will be a never ending cycle. Yes, if you stopped AA today, some people will fall thru the cracks. No doubt. However, IF they can prove themselves, they will become a force that will not be ignored. However, as long as they have the handicap, how will we ever know that they are a force to be reckoned with? Like I said, tell me how I can know that the black MD treating me is the most qualified? I would choose a white MD over a black MD because there is doubt. You can't deny that. Now, when my son goes to an MD, who do you think I will choose for him?

MTI · #79 03-24-2005, 02:27 PM

When we're truly "color-blind" then we should stop taking the medicine.

boneheaddoctor · #80 03-24-2005, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MTI

When we're truly "color-blind" then we should stop taking the medicine.

AA is ticking off enough people that would not otherwise have racial problems....AA is keeping people from being truely color blind by causeing grudges in people who would not otherwise hold one.

Honus · #81 03-24-2005, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boneheaddoctor

AA is ticking off enough people that would not otherwise have racial problems....AA is keeping people from being truely color blind by causeing grudges in people who would not otherwise hold one.

True, but perpetuating the existing power structure ticks people off as well. Pick your poison.

boneheaddoctor · #82 03-24-2005, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dculkin

True, but perpetuating the existing power structure ticks people off as well. Pick your poison.

If these people whold quit bellyaching and get off their entitlement mentality...the opportunity is there....

Look at Aklim...english is not even his first language. AA just perpetuates a culture of poor study habits..and crying and whinning complaining that their personal laziness is somehow the fault of something that stopped over 150 years ago.

When AA stops and these lazy bums get off the streets and study like everyone else does...their problems end....AA isn't helping them its only hurting everyone else.

No different than being an enabler to an alcoholic.

mikemover · #83 03-24-2005, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AustinsCE

And I still want to know where "latin" is, i cant find it on any map....

I'm pretty good with geography, and I've never been able to find Caucasia either.

Mike

Botnst · #84 03-24-2005, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MTI

When we're truly "color-blind" then we should stop taking the medicine.

Not even truly colorblind. I don't think that is possible. Just so we get it hammered into bone-headed nincompoops that everybody should be treated equally and fairly, resulting in the minority believing that there is fair play. IMO we are not there yet in the perceptions or actions of either the majority or minority. We sure as heck have come a long way since I was a kid and I don't think we have all that far to go.

IMO it is worth the infliction of injustice on the majority at this time. But I do appreciate that the laws, intentionally unfair to the majority and intentionally prejudiced in favor of the minority, should be challenged at every opportunity. Challenges are winning an increasing proportion of the time. That's a good thing, I sure as heck don't want those damned laws institutionalized into our society, an outcome sought by old-left minority groups.

aklim · #85 03-24-2005, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boneheaddoctor

If these people whold quit bellyaching and get off their entitlement mentality...the opportunity is there....

Look at Aklim...english is not even his first language. AA just perpetuates a culture of poor study habits..and crying and whinning complaining that their personal laziness is somehow the fault of something that stopped over 150 years ago.

When AA stops and these lazy bums get off the streets and study like everyone else does...their problems end....AA isn't helping them its only hurting everyone else.

No different than being an enabler to an alcoholic.

In Singapore, Chinese spoke different chinese dilacts. However, I realized that if I want to be in some English speaking country for any length of time, it would behoove me to make English my first language or spend the rest of my life asking people to translate this that and the other for me. The choice was simple.

aklim · #86 03-24-2005, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

Not even truly colorblind. I don't think that is possible. Just so we get it hammered into bone-headed nincompoops that everybody should be treated equally and fairly, resulting in the minority believing that there is fair play. IMO we are not there yet in the perceptions or actions of either the majority or minority. We sure as heck have come a long way since I was a kid and I don't think we have all that far to go.

IMO it is worth the infliction of injustice on the majority at this time. But I do appreciate that the laws, intentionally unfair to the majority and intentionally prejudiced in favor of the minority, should be challenged at every opportunity. Challenges are winning an increasing proportion of the time. That's a good thing, I sure as heck don't want those damned laws institutionalized into our society, an outcome sought by old-left minority groups.

Giving bennies is easy, taking it away will always be harder. If we live to 150, I'll bet that it will still be there. How many years has AA been there? when will it change attitudes? More importantly, how will it change attitudes when I am constantly wondering if that black guy was really competent and beat out the competition for the job or whether he was shoved in the back door. If there was a surgeon working on a really delicate operation on you, would you chance the black surgeon who may or may not have been sneaked in the back door or would you go with the white surgeon who has a much smaller chance of getting via the back door in the dead of night? I know I would choose the white guy. Now, you are going to have to wait till I die off before attitudes like that will change. However, in the meantime, you are still cultivating people with doubts in their mind.

Forget the injustice part for a while. Let me know this: How do I know that the minority actually got in via his own merrits? If you stop AA today, would I trust all minorities immediately? Not a chance. Anyone that went thru the system is immediately suspect. It will take another generation before I believe what I see on paper. How will you correct that? With another generation? And anoteher one after that?

boneheaddoctor · #87 03-24-2005, 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

In Singapore, Chinese spoke different chinese dilacts. However, I realized that if I want to be in some English speaking country for any length of time, it would behoove me to make English my first language or spend the rest of my life asking people to translate this that and the other for me. The choice was simple.

I spent 5 years living and working in Italy....I didn't speak two words of the language when I got there. I worked amoung Americans there...in one year I taught myself enough to be conversational level...I worked a rotating shift...class wasn't an option. I do well in the language but not as well are you do in ours. Due to the fact I had zero formal training in the language. I was self taught total immersion style where I basicly never spoke english outside of work hours as most of my neighbors spoke little if any English.

In that year I spoke more than every one of my other co-workers combined...In five years I was able to negotiate deals that the US government couldn't pull off with the locals.

I still have a legal right to Work in Europe.......courtesy of the old immigrations laws when I got married there in 1991. All I need to do is renew my work papers withing 48 hours of arriving in-country. I am elligible for Italian Citizenship....but there were and are reasons why it was not in my best interest to exercise them.

Botnst · #88 03-24-2005, 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

...
Forget the injustice part for a while. Let me know this: How do I know that the minority actually got in via his own merrits? If you stop AA today, would I trust all minorities immediately? Not a chance. Anyone that went thru the system is immediately suspect. It will take another generation before I believe what I see on paper. How will you correct that? With another generation? And anoteher one after that?

You don't know and neither does the applicant. Therefore both the minority and majority have a vested interest in being rid of AA. At some time in the not too distant future there will be a crossover point recognized by the minority. Every year that goes by, more minorities recognize this and more of them think it's time has passed. But they are still a small minority within the minority. I'll bet that when more or less half of the minority believe that AA is an unfair burden for everybody, then it will change. That will also require old fart minorty folks to die because they so clearly remember the injustice that they will be as unlikely to be rid of it's influence as a klan member.

Here's a bet: When 20% of blacks currently registered as Democrats change registration to Independent, Republican, or some third party, then AA will go away.

aklim · #89 03-24-2005, 11:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

You don't know and neither does the applicant. Therefore both the minority and majority have a vested interest in being rid of AA. At some time in the not too distant future there will be a crossover point recognized by the minority. Every year that goes by, more minorities recognize this and more of them think it's time has passed. But they are still a small minority within the minority. I'll bet that when more or less half of the minority believe that AA is an unfair burden for everybody, then it will change. That will also require old fart minorty folks to die because they so clearly remember the injustice that they will be as unlikely to be rid of it's influence as a klan member.

Here's a bet: When 20% of blacks currently registered as Democrats change registration to Independent, Republican, or some third party, then AA will go away.

You're right. I don't know. But I know this. One has more chance of being sneaked in via the back door than the other. As such, I will choose the one that is less likely to be snuck into the back door.

boneheaddoctor · #90 03-25-2005, 08:34 AM

If Aklim can do this AFTER learning our language without preferential treatment...then any of the lazy bums (minorities) who grew up speaking english and who whine about needing preferential treatment to compete would be better served by partying less and working harder. Learning a language well enough to get around in a new country and learning the language well enough to excell in a College enviroment are far different things.

Aklim is a prime example of what hard work can achive ........vs someone who wants everything handed to them on a silver platter.
I for one applaud Aklims hard work...having been in a simular situation I do fully understand his achievments.

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Krugman on Fahrenheit 9/11	Honus	Off-Topic Discussion	250	07-30-2004 07:32 PM
What's this hanging off the back of my car ('99 E430)?	pwells	Car Audio and Multimedia	8	05-28-2003 10:22 PM
Got Into University Of NEB. and DBCC	Benzman500	Off-Topic Discussion	17	04-17-2003 10:32 PM
Who's Smarter?	PC Dave	Off-Topic Discussion	17	03-21-2003 04:07 PM