Now I'm really confused!! - Page 6 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

aklim · #76 07-03-2006, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maroon 300D

Don't forget, akilm, we elected a Republican majority...

I guess that means that is the way the country at the time wanted to go. That is how I would look at it.

Maroon 300D · #77 07-03-2006, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

I guess that means that is the way the country at the time wanted to go. That is how I would look at it.

True. I was facetiously comparing them to Hamas, of course.

I wouldn't use the rotten apple analogy for the Palestinians vis-a-vis Hamas' success in the election. I think they're fed different info. and have a different perspective. We see Hamas' actions as terrorism; I'm sure the Palestinians use the equivalent Arabic word for the things Israel does.

I don't agree personally, but I know I would have a different opinion if I grew up in different circumstances in a different place. The argument can be made that 'right is right,' but I think that's a fine line indeed when you're talking about nations and not individuals. Obviously decisions have to be made, but the right path is rarely crystal clear from where I'm sitting.

cmac2012 · #78 07-03-2006, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emmerich

Better check your history. The Palestinians were kicked out of Arab countries, not run out by Israel. Alll Israel has done is re-take what the Arabs captured in the 6 Day War.

Did you buy that at "History R Us?"

cmac2012 · #79 07-03-2006, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emmerich

Not true (the last sentence). If they had a legitimate cause, why did Arafat turn down the peace proposal that Israel offered that gave them 95% of what they asked for? Because they don't want peace. They want Israel removed from the planet.

Have you ever seen a map of that 95%? It was not shown in the U.S. AFAIK though it was in the Israeli press. The land the Palestinians would have gotten was bissected all over the place by secure roadways, with lenghty checkpoints required for crossing.

I mean, Arafat was an a$$, a crook IMO, but the deal he turned down was not a good deal.

Emmerich · #80 07-03-2006, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmac2012

Did you buy that at "History R Us?"

Buy a history book dude. Palestine never existed as a country. Before Israel was formed, the Arab countries, primarily Jordan and Syria were somewhat labeled "Palestine". I meant to say Israel took back land in the 1948 war, not the 6 day war, my bad. However territory was swappe din the 6 day war.

I'll point out some differences in case you missed them: which of Israel and palestine is recognized by the UN? Which has a government? Which has a defined border?

But lets not forget the "government" of palestine, a terrorist group whose goal is to eliminate Jews, preceded by the PLO whose goal was to eliminate jews. See a pattern?

Next time you go to Walmart, find something labeled "made in Palestine" and post what you find here.

Emmerich · #81 07-03-2006, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmac2012

Have you ever seen a map of that 95%? It was not shown in the U.S. AFAIK though it was in the Israeli press. The land the Palestinians would have gotten was bissected all over the place by secure roadways, with lenghty checkpoints required for crossing.

I mean, Arafat was an a$$, a crook IMO, but the deal he turned down was not a good deal.

The point was if somebody offers you 95% thats a HUGE compromise on their part, and the fact you reject it makes it clear #1 you never thought they would give that much and #2 it really wasn't your goal in the first place, just BS.

cmac2012 · #82 07-05-2006, 01:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emmerich

The point was if somebody offers you 95% thats a HUGE compromise on their part, and the fact you reject it makes it clear #1 you never thought they would give that much and #2 it really wasn't your goal in the first place, just BS.

Arafat was no hero of mine. However, he would have been tarred and feathered by his "allies" if he had accepted that deal. The Jews early on wanted a culturally continous nation rather than being shunted off in "Bantu-stans." If they had done drawn their borders tightly and stuck with that, might have been a lot better off. Instead, they let the settlement/further ambition thing get out of control and of course they had to have 100 yard wide secure roadways connecting the settlements with Israel proper, every roadway bissecting Palestinian land and requiring checkpoints -- more like chokepoints. Now they're doing more of the same with the new fence/wall cutting between Palestinian homes and their farmland while they effectively grab more of the preferred land of the west bank.

Not a recipe for harmony.

aklim · #83 07-05-2006, 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmac2012

Arafat was no hero of mine. However, he would have been tarred and feathered by his "allies" if he had accepted that deal. The Jews early on wanted a culturally continous nation rather than being shunted off in "Bantu-stans." If they had done drawn their borders tightly and stuck with that, might have been a lot better off.

Instead, they let the settlement/further ambition thing get out of control and of course they had to have 100 yard wide secure roadways connecting the settlements with Israel proper, every roadway bissecting Palestinian land and requiring checkpoints -- more like chokepoints. Now they're doing more of the same with the new fence/wall cutting between Palestinian homes and their farmland while they effectively grab more of the preferred land of the west bank.

So it is Arafat's "allies" that are at fault?

If you were being bombed via suicide bombers, what would you do? Give people free access?

peragro · #84 07-05-2006, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

So it is Arafat's "allies" that are at fault?

If you were being bombed via suicide bombers, what would you do? Give people free access?

I think there is a significant number of people who think that you must find a moral equivalence in every conflict. In a sense it's an inane culmination of the "shades of gray" world view in which there is no good nor bad, just shades of gray - "and we must be willing to see both sides of the issue".

Often, and usually, this type of thinking is aimed most harshly and poorly at the group in which the person is a member. I.e. "America is the problem", "self-hating jews", "hate America first" crowd etc... Essentially giving a pass to the other side of the equation which is in reality performing the most heinous of acts. This is why terrorists who blow up children are called "insurgents" in some cases and "freedom fighters" in others. There is a failure to see that blowing up children on purpose is Evil, because evil, and likewise good, do not exist in thier worldview.

It is akin, in my opinion, to likening the proposed building of a wall along the southern border of the US to the wall built seperating Germany. Those who must find moral equivalency fail to see the difference that one wall was built to keep people in and one is built to keep people out and the world of difference in those two world views.

cmac2012 · #85 07-05-2006, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

So it is Arafat's "allies" that are at fault?

If you were being bombed via suicide bombers, what would you do? Give people free access?

By his allies, I meant every Palestinian roughly in his camp.

I wouldn't sit still for a minute for suicide bombers nor would I politely go away like we seem to expect the Palestinians to do.

If nothing else, this whole thing could serve as an example of what will likely happen when you think you can ethnically cleanse a region and claim it for your own. The Jews sorta pulled it off. A few fliles in that ointment, however.

peragro · #86 07-05-2006, 03:52 PM

How many synagouges are there in Syria or the Palestinian territory? How many Mosques are there in Israel?

BENZ-LGB · #87 07-05-2006, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by peragro

I think there is a significant number of people who think that you must find a moral equivalence in every conflict. In a sense it's an inane culmination of the "shades of gray" world view in which there is no good nor bad, just shades of gray - "and we must be willing to see both sides of the issue".

Often, and usually, this type of thinking is aimed most harshly and poorly at the group in which the person is a member. I.e. "America is the problem", "self-hating jews", "hate America first" crowd etc... Essentially giving a pass to the other side of the equation which is in reality performing the most heinous of acts. This is why terrorists who blow up children are called "insurgents" in some cases and "freedom fighters" in others. There is a failure to see that blowing up children on purpose is Evil, because evil, and likewise good, do not exist in thier worldview.

It is akin, in my opinion, to likening the proposed building of a wall along the southern border of the US to the wall built seperating Germany. Those who must find moral equivalency fail to see the difference that one wall was built to keep people in and one is built to keep people out and the world of difference in those two world views.

Peragro, I agree with you 1000%. You have hit the nail on the proverbial head.

There will always be the "America is always at fault" (no matter what) crowd.

And there will always be the side that blames Israel and Jew for everything (those "damned rich Jews").

And there is, as you correctly pointed out, the morally ambivelent and ideologically ambiguous crowd that cannot see (or chooses not to see) that one side of the conflict is truly evil.

These are the same people who, inthe name of "fairness," will say things like, "...well, Hitler helped creat the VW..." or "...well, I read some place that Kastro has good health plans for Cubans..." or "...the Palestinians are only trying to survive in a hostile environment... ."

Even assuming, arguendo, that Hitler created the VW, and Mussolini had the trains running on time and Kastro provides (allegedly) free health care fo all Cubans, the question remains...so what?

Ted Bundy was a natty dresser and Scott Peterson played a good round of golf...but Ted was a mass murdered and Scott killed his pregnant wife and unborn son.

Peragro, the people identified in your post will never be able to see that there are subtle and not so subtle differences betweeen one side and the other. They cannot understand (or chose not to understand) that there are things in life that are black and white, good and evil. They all worship at hte altar of moral relativism...the highest deity of the American left. Nothing is good or bad, black or white, just shades of grey. I call BS on that.

They are blind, or they chose to be blind. In either event, they will always remain at the fringe, nothing more than a nuisance unable (or unwilling) to stand up for what is good and right and against what is bad and wrong.

aklim · #88 07-05-2006, 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmac2012

If nothing else, this whole thing could serve as an example of what will likely happen when you think you can ethnically cleanse a region and claim it for your own. The Jews sorta pulled it off. A few fliles in that ointment, however.

I think you got it in reverse. The Jews are not the ones ethnically clensing the region. It is the muslims there that are wanting to do it. Hell, even in their statements, they refuse to want to live together.

BENZ-LGB · #89 07-05-2006, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

I think you got it in reverse. The Jews are not the ones ethnically clensing the region. It is the muslims there that are wanting to do it. Hell, even in their statements, they refuse to want to live together.

Amen!

The Palestinians and their enablers will continue to play the victim game...