I read now and then where educated Arabs believe that we ran through our own supply while gearing up for industrialization and now want to run through their supply before they can use it to advance their own culture.

I agree that individual action is a good route to go and I pursue that, using biodiesel most of the time and biking when possible. But, strong and wise leadership can help this process. We’ve structured our society to revolve around the stuff.

A bit of an oxymoron but not entirely. Pardo-moise but they be some clichés here. Yes the ruling class is making $Billions off of our profligacy. The masses who hate the ruling class are not as ignorant as you think they are. In S. Arabia, the Saud family is hated in many sectors because of the iron fist (western supplied iron) they rule with and the opulent lifestyle they lead.

Regardless, the fact that we pull the strings is not lost on many of them and they resent it, just as we would.

I have little fondness for a lot of this crowd. However, if we continue to treat them in a manner we would in no way tolerate, we’re likely to encounter serious friction.

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1986 300SDL, 362K
1984 300D, 138K

I wonder if the passages in the Koran that talk of subjugating the non-believer or killing him if he doesn't acquiesce carry more weight than those passages that deal with conserving the local oil supply or helping the environment?

As I recall, Muhammad didn't really say much regarding conservation.

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-livin' in the terminally flippant zone

Read the bible peragro, you`ll find passages just as evil.

No religion is without blood on its hands.

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300TD W124, Two VW TDI Passat Wagons,Cummins Ram 250, Kubota Tractor
23 cylinders sipping the sweet sauce of the soy bean

Again, I don't want to take their side, but if you underestimate your enemy, could be trouble. Plenty of those guys are capable of putting two and two together.

I think eventually, they'll evolve out of their fanaticism. They'll do it more quickly if we quit waving red flags in front of them.

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1986 300SDL, 362K
1984 300D, 138K

My point wasn't that the subjugation passages aren't there, clearly they are as they are to some extent in the old testement. New testement is more of a free will tome in which you choose rather than force - different from Islam, but another discussion entirely.

Suggesting that radical Islamists do what they do because of whomever's usage of natural resources is wishful thinking on one hand and the application of one religous world view upon another.

It is simple. The people who run the terrorist organizations; Nasrallah, Iran, Arafat, etc... are in it for the power. They could give a rats @ss about anything remotely environmental. The folks who are fanatic about terrorism do it because their leaders tell them the Koran tells them to do it and they will be rewarded in heaven once they are done with this misarable existence here on earth - and if you can take some unbelievers with you then that's a plus for everyone who subscribes to that point of view. It is a conflict between two competing views of what civilisation should be.

And now another question. Why is so much energy expended on our support of previous dictators? Every country under the sun does it and has done so. It is called diplomacy and statecraft. Indeed, much of the issue in the middle east arises from European colonialism - not US colonialism. Furthermore, the EU uses as much, if not more, energy than does the US (and don't pop up a graph saying otherwise unless it's normalised for population, land area and local resources). So why is it that this country is continually pilloried by the left yet Europe is looked upon as forward thinking and rational; two things that they have historically not been and aren't now.

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-livin' in the terminally flippant zone

It might be wishful thinking to believe that our oil consumption doesn't have anything to do with our country being targeted by these radical groups.
In spite of the clash of civilizations, Chrisitans and Muslims have both existed for over 1,000 years and both can exist for another 1,000 and more if we all play our cards right.

We shouldn't give in to the demands of these radical groups, but taking steps to wean ourselves off of foreign oil just seems like a smart idea.

Your comment about Europe's tendency to be the opposite of forward thinking and rational is a good one IMO, BTW.

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Ralph

1985 300D Turbo, CA model
248,650 miles and counting...

Got no problem with weaning. As I've said many times before, I'd rather use the petro products for chemical feed stock rather than burn them. Also said many times before that I'm very much in favor of alternate energy sources. How else are we going to colonize the other planets?

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-livin' in the terminally flippant zone

Do you think that was his point? I don't.

I think what he intended to convey is that the theocracies of the middleast are far more concerned about submission than they are about conservation.

You're a good man, Bot. Despite all that stuff Cmac says about you.

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-livin' in the terminally flippant zone

I agree with much of what you've been adding to these sorts of thread lately. However, this statement is only half correct. Some of the nations in the ME do have "uneducated masses" but some societies have "highly educated masses" that are even more dangerous. Saudi Arabia, supposedly the West's "ally" in the war on terror, is an excellent case in point. They have a literacy rate amongst adult males that goes into the low 90% range, and also have a shockingly high portion of their population with university education, since the Kingdom pays for it. However, there aren't any jobs so most of the young adult males who have just graduated from university hang around the Mosque, listening to the hatred preached against the West, Israel and the Saudi royal family. These people are educated enough to know that their population of 16 million is being raped by the 30,000 or so members of the al Saud family that run the country. And they know that they can bring the family down by interrupting the global petroleum machine that has something like 40% of the world's proven resources in their country.

These people are ripe for radicalization. They're smart, sophisticated and motivated. They feel disenfranchised and are looking for something to believe in other than their corrupt and decadent leaders They pose a greater danger to you and I than some Kurd or Pashtun off in the hills of Afghanistan or Iraq. The uneducated ones don't scare me. Most of the illiterate and poverty stricken are more concerned about how they're going to feed their families this winter. Its the educated ones that scare the hell out of me.

How many of the 911 hijackers were Saudi nationals in the US on education visas?

And the choir shouts "Amen".

Morality is not an issue for me, I was trying to figure out why folks get so emotional about it. Also, I keep seeing folks say things like "we" need to reduce "our" dependency. IMO, if somebody feels strongly about it they should lead the way. Soypwrd is the only one that I have seen step forward and accept that responsibility, so I give him a pass on his use of "we." The rest of the folks who think "we" have a problem need to lead the way.

More proof that you barely understand where I'm coming from. I'm a patient man, however, and have compassion for all wayward souls.

When proud people feel humiliated, they often lash out. Of course, a lot of the problem is their excessive pride but people have to let go of that on their own. If you try to make them, they hold on tighter.

Look at the last 100 years. We have gradually usurped their dominion in their own homelands to some degree.

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1986 300SDL, 362K
1984 300D, 138K

It was a joke, dude, at both your's and Bot's expense. Hence the thingies. A lite attempt at humor which obviously crashed quicker than Paris Hilton in a brand new range rover - alas, my apologies to you both.

Why would I feel humiliated at what you said? At best it's non-applicable to the point at hand, at worst it's simply wrong.

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-livin' in the terminally flippant zone

True.

But that is not his point.

Mike

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1979 300 SD
350,000 miles
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1982 300D-gone---sold to a buddy
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1985 300TD
270,000 miles
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1994 E320
not my favorite, but the wife wanted it

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