How Do We "Win" a War on Terror? - Page 58 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

cmac2012 · #**856** 09-28-2006, 11:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikemover

The point is that the two aren't even CLOSE to being comparable.

WE treat prisoners INFINITELY better than they do.

So maybe our interrogators insult the prisoners (most of whom are guilty of numerous violent crimes) or insult their "peaceful" religion, or take their clothing, or put womens' underwear on their heads, all in an attempt to gain some useful intelligence that will probably save lives...

...So f***ing what?!....

When THEY take prisoners, (most often INNOCENT ones!) they saw their heads off with a machete and videotape it for the world to see!... Or they just kill them and hang them from a local bridge!....

The fact that you would even TRY to equate the way WE treat prisoners to the way THEY treat them is laughable, at best.

Of course we treat prisoners way better and we should continue to, that is, once we eschew this torture business. These guys are too loosely affiliated for torture to be of much use. Too many independent franchises.

It's sad but true, even if they do 10 times worse than we do, when we torture, they'll just use it as more grist for their mill about what infidels we are.

I say we lead by example. The fantasy about having a guy who knows where a nuke is set to go off in an American city has a longer shot than winning the lotto 3 times in a row.

I've been hearing tales about how former interigators are not doing well once they return to civilian life.

The great Sioux medicine man, Black Elk, returned from a hunt with the other men once to find their village ransacked, the women and children dead, raped, scalped, maimed -- everything in smoldering ruins. They knew it was the white man because of the manner of killing. The young braves were incredibly hot for revenge, whooping and exhorting each other about how they were going to return the same ten-fold to the whites.

Black Elk held up his hand and said, "Wait! These people are NOT our teachers."

Chris Bell · #**857** 09-29-2006, 07:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmac2012

Of course we treat prisoners way better and we should continue to, that is, once we eschew this torture business. These guys are too loosely affiliated for torture to be of much use. Too many independent franchises.

It's sad but true, even if they do 10 times worse than we do, when we torture, they'll just use it as more grist for their mill about what infidels we are.

I say we lead by example. The fantasy about having a guy who knows where a nuke is set to go off in an American city has a longer shot than winning the lotto 3 times in a row.

I've been hearing tales about how former interigators are not doing well once they return to civilian life.

The great Sioux medicine man, Black Elk, returned from a hunt with the other men once to find their village ransacked, the women and children dead, raped, scalped, maimed -- everything in smoldering ruins. They knew it was the white man because of the manner of killing. The young braves were incredibly hot for revenge, whooping and exhorting each other about how they were going to return the same ten-fold to the whites.

Black Elk held up his hand and said, "Wait! These people are NOT our teachers."

And we all know how well things turned out for the Sioux.

aklim · #**858** 09-29-2006, 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmac2012

Of course we treat prisoners way better and we should continue to, that is, once we eschew this torture business. These guys are too loosely affiliated for torture to be of much use. Too many independent franchises.

It's sad but true, even if they do 10 times worse than we do, when we torture, they'll just use it as more grist for their mill about what infidels we are.

I say we lead by example.

The great Sioux medicine man, Black Elk, returned from a hunt with the other men once to find their village ransacked, the women and children dead, raped, scalped, maimed -- everything in smoldering ruins. They knew it was the white man because of the manner of killing. The young braves were incredibly hot for revenge, whooping and exhorting each other about how they were going to return the same ten-fold to the whites. Black Elk held up his hand and said, "Wait! These people are NOT our teachers."

Sometimes, it might work. To say that it has absolutely no value is false. Besides, even if we did it to them, won't it be that they are reaping what they sowed as you are so fond of saying?

Infinity plus one equals? They already are full of hate for us. What is the difference?

And others will follow? Really? They following at this time? Anyone?

So how did the Soiux fare in the end?

Botnst · #**859** 09-29-2006, 08:18 AM

Mostly the stay on the res and get drunk or cook-up crank to sell it to each other.

B

mikemover · #**860** 09-29-2006, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Bell

And we all know how well things turned out for the Sioux.

Yes, perhaps the Sioux should have reconsidered that decision....

...Because they LOST in the end, did they not?

If your opponent is willing to do ANYTHING to win, then you had better be equally committed.

Anything less, and you will probably LOSE.

Mike

Chris Bell · #**861** 09-29-2006, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmac2012

Of course we treat prisoners way better and we should continue to, that is, once we eschew this torture business. These guys are too loosely affiliated for torture to be of much use. Too many independent franchises.

It's sad but true, even if they do 10 times worse than we do, when we torture, they'll just use it as more grist for their mill about what infidels we are.

I say we lead by example. The fantasy about having a guy who knows where a nuke is set to go off in an American city has a longer shot than winning the lotto 3 times in a row.

I've been hearing tales about how former interigators are not doing well once they return to civilian life.

The great Sioux medicine man, Black Elk, returned from a hunt with the other men once to find their village ransacked, the women and children dead, raped, scalped, maimed -- everything in smoldering ruins. They knew it was the white man because of the manner of killing. The young braves were incredibly hot for revenge, whooping and exhorting each other about how they were going to return the same ten-fold to the whites.

Black Elk held up his hand and said, "Wait! These people are NOT our teachers."

The more I think about this cmac quote the more I relize just how revealing it is. Cmac is holding up as an example a philosophy that completely failed those that espoused it. The Sioux were in a fight for their lives, for their way of life and they got their asses handed to them. Now 150 or so years later CMAC is espousing this philosophy as one that we should admire and follow. One could only conclude two things. One, CMAC wants the same result for us that the Sioux experienced. Or, two CMAC is going mad...repeating the same thing over and over but expecting different results. Either way turing the other cheek when your in a fight for life is never a good idea.

Jim B. · #**862** 09-29-2006, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Bell

The more I think about this cmac quote the more I relize just how revealing it is. Cmac is holding up as an example a philosophy that completely failed those that espoused it. The Sioux were in a fight for their lives, for their way of life and they got their asses handed to them. Now 150 or so years later CMAC is espousing this philosophy as one that we should admire and follow. One could only conclude two things. One, CMAC wants the same result for us that the Sioux experienced. Or, two CMAC is going mad...repeating the same thing over and over but expecting different results. Either way turing the other cheek when your in a fight for life is never a good idea.

I really admire him for the courage of his convictions, even though I may not share those convictions all the time

Maroon 300D · #**863** 09-29-2006, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Bell

The more I think about this cmac quote the more I relize just how revealing it is. Cmac is holding up as an example a philosophy that completely failed those that espoused it. The Sioux were in a fight for their lives, for their way of life and they got their asses handed to them. Now 150 or so years later CMAC is espousing this philosophy as one that we should admire and follow. One could only conclude two things. One, CMAC wants the same result for us that the Sioux experienced. Or, two CMAC is going mad...repeating the same thing over and over but expecting different results. Either way turing the other cheek when your in a fight for life is never a good idea.

The Sioux did fight back. Ever hear of Crazy Horse?

Black Elk seems like a wise man to me. He knew that to become the enemy was to lose in an entirely different way.

Lets be honest, the Sioux were never going to be able to resist the white settlers indefinitely. Their fate and the fate of other natives and their traditional ways was plain for everyone to see. We called it 'manifest destiny.'

Old300D · #**864** 09-29-2006, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Bell

And we all know how well things turned out for the Sioux.

Wow. Brilliant. Seems like morals are a thing of the past too.

Botnst · #**865** 09-29-2006, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old300D

Wow. Brilliant. Seems like morals are a thing of the past too.

Wow, brilliant! Another supporter of the present president who's morals are divinely inspired. And the previous president, who had the self-proclaimed most ethical administration in history.

You're right at home with both, if morals are what we need to guide forign policy and government.

Happy Taliban to you.

B

PS Not to say I don't like'em. I love morels.

aklim · #**866** 09-29-2006, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old300D

Wow. Brilliant. Seems like morals are a thing of the past too.

Hmmm, lets see. If it comes to a choice betwen morals and winning, what would I choose? I think I'll go for winning since losing means that the morals probably won't be worth much except as some scrawlings on a tombstone.

Chris Bell · #**867** 09-30-2006, 01:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old300D

Wow. Brilliant. Seems like morals are a thing of the past too.

If, to you, morals mean moving forward with a losing philosophy on how to fight a war for your survival...then call me immoral if you like, knock yourself out.

zero · #**868** 09-30-2006, 02:28 AM

One needs to apply the same level of propaganda that was used against POST WAR japan and germany. As well as american (though mostly imagined) communism.
Problem is, that level of propaganda is not palatable to citizens of the current west.
After wwII there was TONS of book burning done by the winning side. The old ways had to be wiped out. Japan and Germany were not only extremely nationalistic and militaristic, but had been living under fascisim for decades.
They were completely unaware of what it was like to live in a world where they weren't the only legal government. Resistance was met harshly and thought was pretty well controled.
The same problem affects the world today, instead of nationalism its culturalism.
No one would ever say we should obliterate their beliefs...Never happen now-a-days.

cmac2012 · #**869** 09-30-2006, 04:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Bell

And we all know how well things turned out for the Sioux.

Oh gosh, I guess that proves that your POV is absolutely correct. They had no chance. They realized it themselves before too long. "There will always be more white men, they said."

The vast majority of Muslims do not countenance the tactics of the Islamo-whackos. The more we lower our standards thinking it's going to do us some good, the more we lose the moderates. We're supposed to be the civilized ones. Got to act like it, then,

cmac2012 · #**870** 09-30-2006, 04:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

Sometimes, it might work. To say that it has absolutely no value is false. Besides, even if we did it to them, won't it be that they are reaping what they sowed as you are so fond of saying?

Infinity plus one equals? They already are full of hate for us. What is the difference?

And others will follow? Really? They following at this time? Anyone?

So how did the Soiux fare in the end?

Self fulfilling prophecy. Who is this "they" you speak of? One billion Muslims in the world. No Muslim has ever gotten in my face rudely. I'm sure some of the extremists would be happy to drain my blood, my point is they are a small minority. It behooves us to not increase their numbers.

In the case of Gitmo, about 80% of the detainees were sold to us for bounties of around $5,000. You know how much money that is in Pakistan?

I heard a speech by Ray McGovern the other day on Free Speech TV. He was career CIA and has a lot of contacts. He knows a guy who worked the night shift at Abu Gharib. Says one night they got ahold of a general. They're thinking, 'he's a general, he must know something.' Couldn't get him to break. They brought his 16 year old son in. The stripped him, hosed him with cold water, put him in the back of a pick up and drove him around Bagdad at night for a couple of hours and brought him back. The father broke. Too bad he didn't know anything.

What do you think the chances are that guy is going to be a friend of the American effort there??

On the 1/10th of one percent chance, if that, that we might learn some "actionable intelligence" (they get a hard-on when they talk like that) through torture, we set the stage for a 98% chance of making an enemy for life. And all the experts say torture doesn't work anyway.

GDed pea-brain lunacy. Thank you Uncle Dick.