I was just joining in with my tongue firmly planted as well.

__________________
1986 300SDL, 362K
1984 300D, 138K

Have you talked to any Fallujans? Have you talked to any American's who participated in that battle, who are there now? Do you even know anyone who is in Iraq? You have 2nd and 3rd hand opninions from people who are less than fair in thier reporting.

So you have a passionate belief that what you say is accurate. But not much in the way of fact to back it up other than bad karma and funny smells.

12 million iraqis voted because they hate democracy. Since we're extrapolating numbers that would be like 150,000,000 of all the people in this country voting. Pretty impressive. I'm going to support them in thier best oppurtunity for a country of thier own in the last 300 years.

And that's hegomoniacal arse, not imperialistic.

__________________
-livin' in the terminally flippant zone

And you've talked to how many Fallujans? Watching them speak on video is way more than most Americans see of them as these videos are not shown on network or most cable news shows. You can see them on Free Speech TV, Liberty News, on cable or satellite.

I don't blame them for a minute for voting in droves. After being under Saddam's thumb? And they voted in....civil war! Oh boy! Well, not specifically but that'll be the upshot -- voting straight down sectarian lines.

After that family was killed under suspicious circumstances, alledgedly murdered by our troops, someone wrote on the house: "This family killed by democracy." I've heard people who've been working for democracy in the region say they're now hampered by the bad rep. democracy has gotten.

People there don't really get it. Democracy = American troops invading, breaking down doors, etc.

Yes, I wanted to get rid of or disempower Saddam too. I don't think we went about it wisely. I've expounded on that before.

__________________
1986 300SDL, 362K
1984 300D, 138K

Let's use your logic:

I heard the other day that a guy was unfairly imprisoned for a crime that he didn't commit. He lost 20 years of his life.

Clearly the justice system doesn't work. that guy was jailed because of our "justice". I've often said I would like the justice system to work better than it does. This clearly shows that we go about dispensing "justice" entirely wrong. It's because were to arrogant to realize that we might make a mistake. If we'd just admit that we screwed up then everyone would feel a lot better. I say we just don't worry about that crime stuff anyway, I mean, who are we to try and do anything about a criminal?
[/tongueincheek]

__________________
-livin' in the terminally flippant zone

Possibly an effective strategy in the short-term, since this IS a war against fundamentalist Islam, and it certainly wouldn't be difficult to unite a whole lot of Christians, Jews, and Catholics against them...

But in the long-term... I don't think I'd want to live under the thumb of the probable victors (Christians/Catholics) either.

History has shown that living under the rule of ANY theocracy--Muslim, Christian, Catholic, whatever--inevitably leads to very unpleasant circumstances for the general population.

Mike

__________________
_____
1979 300 SD
350,000 miles
_____
1982 300D-gone---sold to a buddy
_____
1985 300TD
270,000 miles
_____
1994 E320
not my favorite, but the wife wanted it

www.myspace.com/mikemover
www.myspace.com/openskystudio
www.myspace.com/speedxband
www.myspace.com/openskyseparators
www.myspace.com/doubledrivemusic

Mike, Catholics are christians.

__________________
-livin' in the terminally flippant zone

Did you mean to respond to another post?

What, I'm not able to fly to Iraq and interview Fallujah refugees and our troop who fought there? Oh to be a journalist with funds and support to do that.

Watch one of the GDed videos on Fallujah and get back to me. We wasted that town. Very, very few Sunnis are ever going to buy our rational for doing so. Don't forget, the Sunnis are a minority in Iraq but a majority in greater Arabia.

__________________
1986 300SDL, 362K
1984 300D, 138K

Logic doesn't neccesarily denote exact comparisons.

In other words, I'm not a fan of throwing the baby out with the bath water. As you seem to continually advocate.

__________________
-livin' in the terminally flippant zone

Not to mention it'd be world war. China, Korea, Japan are not going to let Christians have control of all middle east oil. They'd have more boots on the ground in the ME than we could possibly send over.

If we want to go settle those lands and exterminate the natives, MAYBE it would work. But as an invading army? Decades of grief, expensive grief.

__________________
1986 300SDL, 362K
1984 300D, 138K

Dude, it's lost in Iraq. I should really just leave this forum and come back in 10 years and then we'll talk about it.

__________________
1986 300SDL, 362K
1984 300D, 138K

Not according to a lot of Christians....

I don't really care one way or another... I'm just sayin'....

Mike

__________________
_____
1979 300 SD
350,000 miles
_____
1982 300D-gone---sold to a buddy
_____
1985 300TD
270,000 miles
_____
1994 E320
not my favorite, but the wife wanted it

www.myspace.com/mikemover
www.myspace.com/openskystudio
www.myspace.com/speedxband
www.myspace.com/openskyseparators
www.myspace.com/doubledrivemusic

ok

__________________
-livin' in the terminally flippant zone

OK.

Mike

__________________
_____
1979 300 SD
350,000 miles
_____
1982 300D-gone---sold to a buddy
_____
1985 300TD
270,000 miles
_____
1994 E320
not my favorite, but the wife wanted it

www.myspace.com/mikemover
www.myspace.com/openskystudio
www.myspace.com/speedxband
www.myspace.com/openskyseparators
www.myspace.com/doubledrivemusic

Nothing against you so don't take it personally.

1. How do I know you will be alive in 10 years?
2. How do I know I will be alive in 10 years?
3. How do I know that in 10 years, we won't have a worse crisis that makes this one look like a bedtime story?
4. WTF! This is just like those actors saying they will eave the country if Bush wins so, I'll bet you won't BTW, doesn't bother me one way or the other.

__________________
01 Ford Excursion Powerstroke
99 E300 Turbodiesel
91 Vette with 383 motor
05 Polaris Sportsman 800 EFI
06 Polaris Sportsman 500 EFI
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Red
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Yellow
04 Tailgator 21 ft Toy Hauler
11 Harley Davidson 883 SuperLow

How Bad Is the Senate
Intelligence Report?
Very bad.
by Stephen F. Hayes
09/25/2006, Volume 012, Issue 02


According to a report released September 8 by the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, Saddam Hussein "was resistant to cooperating with al Qaeda or any other Islamist groups." It's an odd claim. Saddam Hussein's regime has a long and well-documented history of cooperating with Islamists, including al Qaeda and its affiliates.

As early as 1982, the Iraqi regime was openly supporting, training, and funding the Syrian Muslim Brotherhood, an Islamist organization opposed to the secular regime of Hafez Assad. For years, Saddam Hussein cultivated warm relations with Hassan al-Turabi, the Islamist who was the de facto leader of the Sudanese terrorist state, and a man Bill Clinton described as "a buddy of [Osama] bin Laden's."

Throughout the 1990s, the Iraqi regime hosted Popular Islamic Conferences in Baghdad, gatherings modeled after conferences Turabi hosted in Khartoum. Mark Fineman, a reporter for the Los Angeles Times, attended one of the conferences and filed a story about his experience on January 26, 1993. "There are delegates from the most committed Islamic organizations on Earth," he wrote. "Afghan mujahedeen (holy warriors), Palestinian militants, Sudanese fundamentalists, the Islamic Brotherhood and Pakistan's Party of Islam." Newsweek's Christopher Dickey attended the same conference and wrote about it in 2002. "Islamic radicals from all over the Middle East, Africa, and Asia converged on Baghdad," he wrote, "to show their solidarity with Iraq in the face of American aggression. . . . Every time I hear diplomats and politicians, whether in Washington or the capitals of Europe, declare that Saddam Hussein is a 'secular Baathist ideologue' who has nothing to do with Islamists or terrorist calls to jihad, I think of that afternoon and I wonder what they're talking about. If that was not a fledgling Qaeda itself at the Rashid convention, it sure was Saddam's version of it."

Iraqi leaders frequently touted their Islamist credentials. "We are blessed in this country for having the Islamic holy warrior Saddam Hussein as a leader, who is guiding the country in a religious holy war against the infidels and nonbelievers," said Izzat Ibrahim al-Douri, one of Saddam's top deputies, in an address to the terrorist confab. On August 27, 1998, 20 days after al Qaeda attacked the U.S. embassies in Africa, Babel, the government newspaper run by Saddam's son Uday Hussein, published an editorial proclaiming Osama bin Laden "an Arab and Islamic hero."

None of this is a secret, as the press coverage attests. But the authors of the Senate report seem determined to write it out of the history. On what basis do the authors claim that Saddam Hussein was "resistant" to cooperation with Islamists? The finding is sourced to "postwar detainee debriefs--including debriefs of Saddam Hussein and Tariq Aziz." Well then, that settles it.

But why take Saddam's word for it? This is, after all, the same man who claims that he is the president of Iraq. Even assuming the man isn't a pathological liar, isn't it the case that detainees interrogated by a government fighting a global war on terror might have an incentive to understate their complicity in global terror?

This appears to have occurred to the report's authors. "The Committee believes that the results of detainee debriefs largely comport with documentary evidence, but the Committee cannot definitively judge the accuracy of statements made by individuals in custody and cannot, in every case, confirm that detainee statements are truthful and accurate."

In fact, it's not clear that the results of the detainee debriefs do, in fact, largely comport with the documentary evidence. What is clear is that where there was a conflict, the committee almost always chose to disregard the documentary evidence in favor of the debriefings, sometimes to comical effect. According to the report, Saddam Hussein was asked whether he might cooperate with al Qaeda because "the enemy of the enemy is my friend." The report dutifully--and uncritically--offers his response. "Saddam answered that the United States was not Iraq's enemy. He claimed that Iraq only opposed U.S. policies."

Really? That's hard to reconcile with these instructions from Saddam Hussein in a 1993 address. "Attack them, our beloved people," Saddam ordered in a speech broadcast on Iraqi television. "You are the glory of our nation. Attack them." Or this editorial: "American and British interests, embassies, and naval ships in the Arab region should be the targets of military operations and commando attacks by Arab political forces," argued Uday Hussein's newspaper Babel on November 15, 1997.

A statement from Saddam's Baath party on November 8, 1998, called for "the highest levels of jihad" against American interests. "The escalation of the confrontation and the disclosure of its dimensions and the aggressive intentions now require an organized, planned, influential and conclusive enthusiasm against U.S. interests."

And Saddam Hussein celebrated the attacks on September 11, 2001. "The American cowboys are reaping the fruit of their crimes against humanity," he declared just days after the worst terrorist attack on American soil.

These are just four examples out of dozens. Despite his claims to the contrary, Saddam Hussein regarded the United States as an enemy. And for years he demonstrated his willingness to work with Islamists by, among other things, working with Islamists. The Senate report fails to provide any of this contextual balance to the denials of detained Iraqi officials. It is a revealing omission that raises serious doubts about the quality of the reporting throughout the 52 pages examining Iraq's links to al Qaeda.

There is much to quarrel with in the report. But it is worth spending a moment to consider the vast amount of information that was left out of the committee's treatment of Iraq's links to al Qaeda. A few examples:

There is no mention in the report of Abdul Rahman Yasin, an Iraqi who admitted mixing the chemicals for the bomb used in the 1993 World Trade Center attack, cited in the July 2004 Senate report as an al Qaeda operation. The mastermind of that attack, Ramzi Yousef, is the nephew of 9/11 mastermind Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. Two weeks after the bombing, according a July 2004 report issued by the same Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, Yasin fled to Iraq with Iraqi assistance. ABC News reported in 1994 that a Baghdad neighbor of Yasin's told them that he travels freely and "works for the government."

There is no mention of documents recovered in postwar Iraq confirming that the Iraqi regime provided Yasin with housing and funding after his return to Iraq until the beginning of the Iraq War in 2003. Vice President Dick Cheney has discussed these documents in television and radio interviews.

There is no mention of documents unearthed by reporters with the Toronto Star and the London Telegraph. The documents, expense reports from the Iraqi Intelligence Service, contain an exchange of memos between IIS officers about who will pay for a March 1998 trip to Baghdad by a "trusted confidante" of Osama bin Laden. The documents were provided to the U.S. intelligence community. "I have no doubt that what we found is the real thing," wrote Mitch Potter, a reporter for the Toronto Star, and one of the journalists who found the documents in the bombed-out headquarters of the Iraqi Intelligence Service days after the fall of Baghdad. Intelligence and military sources tell THE WEEKLY STANDARD that the documents are corroborated by telephone intercepts from March 1998.

There is no mention of documents showing that the Iraqi regime cultivated a relationship with bin Laden's chief deputy, Ayman al-Zawahiri, throughout the 1990s. Time magazine's Joe Klein, an Iraq War critic who is dubious of a broader Iraq-al Qaeda relationship, noted last week: "Documents indicate that Saddam had long-term, low-level ties with regional terrorist groups--including Ayman al-Zawahiri, dating back to his time with the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood. There is strong evidence as well that elements of the Special Republican Guard ran terrorist training camps." (One quibble: Is it possible for the leader of Iraq to have "low-level" ties with the leader of Egyptian Islamic Jihad?) The 9/11 Commission reported that Zawahiri "had ties of his own to the Iraqis." In June 2003, U.S. News & World Report described what a defense official called a "potentially significant link" between Iraq and al Qaeda that came, at that early date, from a single source. "A captured senior member of the Mukhabarat, Iraq's intelligence service, has told interrogators about meetings between Iraqi intelligence officials and top members of the Egyptian Islamic Jihad, a group that merged with al Qaeda in the 1990s. The prisoner also described $300,000 in Iraqi transfers to the organization to pay for attacks in Egypt. The transfers were said to have been authorized by Saddam Hussein."

There is no mention of captured Iraqi documents that indicate the regime was providing financial support to Abu Sayyaf, an al Qaeda affiliate group in the Philippines. On June 6, 2001, the Iraqi ambassador to the Philippines, Salah Samarmad, faxed an eight-page report on an Abu Sayyaf kidnapping to the Iraqi Foreign Ministry. According to the fax, the Iraqi Intelligence Service had provided assistance to Abu Sayyaf, but following the high-profile kidnapping decided to suspend this support. According to the document: "The kidnappers were formerly (from the previous year) receiving money and purchasing combat weapons. From now on we (IIS) are not giving them this opportunity and are not on speaking terms with them."

__________________
-livin' in the terminally flippant zone