Gratitude - Page 3 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

peragro · #31 08-23-2006, 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WANT '71 280SEL

Larry makes a good point.

Even if scientists could create a cell from scratch. Note that the cell was created from a scientist, now where did the scientist come from? The point is, like St. Aquinas argued, everything has a beginning and a creator. You cannot have nothing, then suddenly cells begin culminating to form what we believe is the universe. Then again, what gave cells directions on what the cell's function is? So, how does a cell know what it is. Someone/Something had to have given a cell a purpose. Though I keep referencing cells, it is not limited to these tiny creatures. These principles I believe apply to everything which exists in our universe, including the aforementioned universe itself.

About some of the statements some of you guys made about Catholics, I believe some of you may be slightly mistaken in your ideas about Catholicism.

Looking back I see that the long paragraph may not make sense to a lot of you but it was more of a culmination of many thought process going on simultaneously.

Thanks
David

I would assume that you are familiar with the folks and doctrines mentioned in #20.

Which school are you attending now? I'm sorry I can't remember.

Matt L · #32 08-23-2006, 11:19 PM

Arguing that we cannot produce a cell, or if we could, we would only reinforce the belief that it requires a designer, is not an argument at all.

Evolution is well established, and for good reason. The evolution of the eye, to give a particularly well-travelled example, is documented in species still living today!

The existence of life is not proof of the existence of a designer, be it supernatural or extraterrastial. Evolution is blind, but since the mistakes die (or more accurately, reproduce in fewer numbers), it appears to have direction.

As for going to hell, "The gates of hell are locked from the inside." I'll leave it to you believers to figure out the source and significance of that one, should you have any curiosity.

peragro · #33 08-23-2006, 11:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt L

Arguing that we cannot produce a cell, or if we could, we would only reinforce the belief that it requires a designer, is not an argument at all.

Evolution is well established, and for good reason. The evolution of the eye, to give a particularly well-travelled example, is documented in species still living today!

The existence of life is not proof of the existence of a designer, be it supernatural or extraterrastial. Evolution is blind, but since the mistakes die (or more accurately, reproduce in fewer numbers), it appears to have direction.

As for going to hell, "The gates of hell are locked from the inside." I'll leave it to you believers to figure out the source and significance of that one, should you have any curiosity.

There is no conflict between evolution and christianity.

aklim · #34 08-23-2006, 11:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt L

Arguing that we cannot produce a cell, or if we could, we would only reinforce the belief that it requires a designer, is not an argument at all.

The existence of life is not proof of the existence of a designer, be it supernatural or extraterrastial. Evolution is blind, but since the mistakes die (or more accurately, reproduce in fewer numbers), it appears to have direction.

What if over the millions of years, a bunch of random events occured. One of those random events produced life? That possible? Sure. Probable? No. However, when you have a timeline of millions of years and millions of events occuring ever second, 1 in a billion is very likely to happen at some time. Rolling 100 dice and getting all of them to 6 is going to be an improbable event. However, if the time is infinate, sooner or later you will get 100 sixes.

I think the problem is that we as humans are too arrogant to say "I don't know". As such, if we don't know, we plug in an answer. Thus, whether we know or don't, we have an answer. Right or wrong.

Botnst · #35 08-23-2006, 11:39 PM

I know but I ain't sayin'.

dkveuro · #36 08-23-2006, 11:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

What if over the millions of years, a bunch of random events occured. One of those random events produced life? don't, we have an answer.....................................

We are not talking about a single life form...cell, ameba or protozoae, we are looking at life with it's millions of diverse forms..animal and vegetable .

To say all evolved from a single cell is ....?
Most life forms are male and female, so we are looking at two evolving at the same time ? Even more unlikely.

Mulitiply this by the number of species and it become totally improbable by chance.

As was said...constructed things didn't just happen, they needed designing and building...so why is it so difficult to attribute life in it's many forms to a grand designer ?

If there is no divine creator, we can do away with consequences, responsibility and accountability.

There is no one to answer to.

Personally, I do believe in a creator....my eye's tell me there must be one.
Every one is at liberty to believe as they like....and I would demand this to be so.

Please allow me to do so too.

Some one once did an experimant to prove life could be started if the enviroment was just right, and, having produced an amino acid declared he had done so.....problem was...who built the experiment.

.

WANT '71 280SEL · #37 08-24-2006, 12:54 AM

aklim, you mentioned random events that could eventually lead to the consequence which is the creation of life (as a whole). But even these "events" you speak of, still had to have something behind them. If it's like rolling dice, whose rolling the dice? How can "events" happen and when there is a certain alignment or combination, there is life? First of all, "events" is rather ambiguous and I think you'd agree with that. But I am arguing that even these event/s had a beginning. What could have happened from nothing, that would consequently lead to even one cell (anything that life could have begun with) that would lead to something being created? When you add 0 and 0, what is the answer? It's 0. So, everything starts from nothing, so how does something come from nothing? If an "event" occurs, there has to be a catalyst for that event, and there would have to be something for which something to happen to. It's confusing, I'll admit it.

And to be honest, I think my argument could almost bring to question the lack of beginning of a Creator. Because, once again, something cannot come from nothing. Therefore, how could there be an infinite creator. One explanation I would present for this is that time is merely a limit placed on people. I should say that is a possible idea because it obviously cannot be empirically proven. I firmly believe that our Creator is above such laws of physics that we are forced to live by simply because this Creator made what we know of as physics.

My head is kind of spinning right now.

I currently go to Wabash College, a small but prestigious liberal arts college for men. I did however attend 12 years of Catholic school. I have to admit that I learned a lot of what I know about Aquinas and Augustine from my private non-denominational college. I did learn quite a bit though in a Great Catholic Thinker's class I took my first semester of senior year in high school. It was a neat class because we would read Aquinas, etc. then discuss them and try (emphasis on try) to put these writings into a more modern perspective. Augustine is my favorite though I have to admit. I believe he is the epitome of what a Catholic saint should be because he possessed so many characteristics which we can all relate to, Atheists, Agnostics, and Catholics.

Let me also say that I'm not trying to convert you or anything like that aklim, I think you make valid points, but I think there are many misconceptions about Catholicism, though you don't seem that way, and I just wanted to hopefully clear some things up for people. I just present what I believe to be a strong argument for the existence of some sort of higher deity. Now, my argument didn't come close to touching on whether this god is of the Christian sort, etc. or whether or not this god is actively involved in the tangible world. I think this latter point about whether or not God is actively engaged in our world is what makes people wonder whether there is a God at all. Thus the statements "why would God let this happen, etc." and I think statements like that question whether or not God is actively engaged. The fact that horrible things exist though, however, I believe further goes to show a divine creator.

Thanks
David

WANT '71 280SEL · #38 08-24-2006, 01:03 AM

About evolution....
I just happened to look back and notice once more the post discussing evolution. I believe it was Peragro who pointed this out and he is 100% right. I can only speak about the Catholic POV on creation, but the Catholic view is that just about any perspective of creation is alright as long as God is actively involved. Besides, you have to have something to evolve. Evolution just explains why we are exactly as we are today. That says nothing for the creation of man. In fact, the science professors I have come across who all accept evolution, still believe in a higher creator. Just thought I'd put that out there though of course that certainly is a limited sample. It's actually kind of funny because I was talking to a priest and he mentioned something about how science only goes to further religion, not contradict it. The RCC has evolved itself quite a bit since the days of Isaac Newton.

Thanks
David

peragro · #39 08-24-2006, 01:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WANT '71 280SEL

aklim, you mentioned random events that could eventually lead to the consequence which is the creation of life (as a whole). But even these "events" you speak of, still had to have something behind them. If it's like rolling dice, whose rolling the dice? How can "events" happen and when there is a certain alignment or combination, there is life? First of all, "events" is rather ambiguous and I think you'd agree with that. But I am arguing that even these event/s had a beginning. What could have happened from nothing, that would consequently lead to even one cell (anything that life could have begun with) that would lead to something being created? When you add 0 and 0, what is the answer? It's 0. So, everything starts from nothing, so how does something come from nothing? If an "event" occurs, there has to be a catalyst for that event, and there would have to be something for which something to happen to. It's confusing, I'll admit it.

And to be honest, I think my argument could almost bring to question the lack of beginning of a Creator. Because, once again, something cannot come from nothing. Therefore, how could there be an infinite creator. One explanation I would present for this is that time is merely a limit placed on people. I should say that is a possible idea because it obviously cannot be empirically proven. I firmly believe that our Creator is above such laws of physics that we are forced to live by simply because this Creator made what we know of as physics.

My head is kind of spinning right now.

I currently go to Wabash College, a small but prestigious liberal arts college for men. I did however attend 12 years of Catholic school. I have to admit that I learned a lot of what I know about Aquinas and Augustine from my private non-denominational college. I did learn quite a bit though in a Great Catholic Thinker's class I took my first semester of senior year in high school. It was a neat class because we would read Aquinas, etc. then discuss them and try (emphasis on try) to put these writings into a more modern perspective. Augustine is my favorite though I have to admit. I believe he is the epitome of what a Catholic saint should be because he possessed so many characteristics which we can all relate to, Atheists, Agnostics, and Catholics.

I had thought it was a small liberal arts school.

I like Aquinas, not too fond of Augustine - I tend to think he expected everyone to have led as debaucherous life as he had and went a bit overboard in making up for it, still a brilliant man. Have you read Chesterton's "the Dumb Ox"? It's kind of a cliff notes version on Aquinas.

Anyway, good luck in your studies. I always like conteplating the questions you raised above.

P.

WANT '71 280SEL · #40 08-24-2006, 01:16 AM

Aquinas is good, in fact I use his definition of "inebriation" to loosely defend my occasional rendevous with Vodka. He said something about drunkenness is wrong beyond the point of hilarity, which I think is a somewhat fuzzy line to draw depending on who is consuming. Also, one argument that I have never really heard a pro-choice person use against some religious wackos, though most of those types tend to be some sort of Protestant wing, is that Aquinas I believe declared a baby to gain its humanity when it could crawl. Needless to say, the Church does not accept that as the defining point of humanity. For the Church it as at the point of conception, but we're not going to go into that on this thread. I'm just stating it for informational purposes.

I have not read the book, I probably should though since I find him rather interesting. I think it's bad, but it seems that the Catholic seminaries have moved away from teaching the Aquinas sort of theology. Aquinas was (not sure if he still is) declared to be a Father of the Church.

Augustine's lifestyle is what makes him so appealing to me. Not that I have lived like that, but the sort of self-justification he provided is, I believe, just like many people are today. "God give me grace...but not yet." No one wants religion as they're living life, but even many non-believers or weak believers ask for a minister or priest on their deathbed.

Thanks
David

cmac2012 · #41 08-24-2006, 03:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maroon 300D

I was raised Catholic and I would say it's more than a stereotype. It's more of a fear thing, really. There's just something about told from birth that you will be damned to hell for eternity if you're not a good boy.

I believe in God but have serious doubts as to whether any one person's or group's version is really the way it is.

I'll go along with that. I was raised Mormon and while it has its good points, the way they mutually reinforce their particular set of beliefs regarding God and life after death is just a bit much.

Botnst · #42 08-24-2006, 07:26 AM

Much of our lives is spent seeking and giving reassurance concerning our consensual reality. This is the reason we find comfort in family and in people with similar cultural sensibilities. That is a major aspect of what you and I are doing right now.

One aspect of religion is that even when folks don't believe in God per se, they recognize the formalization of that reinforcement mechanism. Is it "good?"

Whatever floats your boat.

B

Carleton Hughes · #43 08-24-2006, 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmac2012

I'll go along with that. I was raised Mormon and while it has its good points, the way they mutually reinforce their particular set of beliefs regarding God and life after death is just a bit much.

Uhhh,tell me about the polygamy thing,won't you?

Mistress · #44 08-24-2006, 10:02 AM

religion explains death....very simple.

Maroon 300D · #45 08-24-2006, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

Man is not perfect. Therefore we will miss something or other. This means that if they catch 99% of the crooks (an impossible figure but lets say, for the sake of arguement) 1 out of 100 will get away. What religion promises is that "Thou shalt not get away with it". If I break a human law, there is a chance I will escape so I might roll the dice. However, if there is an eternal power that will mete out justice (tho if I already get punished here, isn't that double jeapody?) that will tell me that somehow, I am going to get punished. So I had best behave. Just like speeding. I know that 999 out of 1000 times I will escape so I will roll the dice. However, if I know that getting caught means summary execution and the odds are pretty good that I will get caught, I might be more careful about speeding.

Personally, if offered eternal life, I doubt I would want it. Without death and it coming to an end, what is the point of life? How will you appreciate say an event if it comes everyday? Kinda like people telling me about the miracle of birth. It is an every second event. How is that a miracle? A miracle would be if someone could stop Hurricane Katrina about 10 feet from New Orleans shoreline.

I was reading a book on surrealism last night and I came across a Nieztche quote that reminded me of this thread. Not one of my favorite philosophers but here's a paraphrase since I can't remember it exactly: "You say man needs religion. Be honest! You really think man needs the police."

I know how you think it looks vey intelligent to quote other people in lieu of your own thoughts.