Cosby's comments - Page 3 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

riethoven · #31 09-18-2006, 01:01 PM

Some very hard to swallow realities have been spoken here.

One thing that has not been covered is racism as it pertains to all minorites. Why is it that virtually all nationalities that have come to the US including recent groups such as Indian, Pakastani, Korean and Chinese do not face the same uphill struggle that the average poor black person faces? Many of those factors have been highlighted such as the perception of an educated person in the black community, lack of guidance and the dependance that has been created by our welfare system.

Many solutions have also been stated, such as

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plantman

One of my very good friends is black, speaks proper english and carries himself in a decent respectful manner.

He grew up in a single parent household in an impovershed area of Florida.

I always ask him, playfully, "what's up with your cousin's?" Why do they continue to do this silly *****?"

He always shakes his head sadly and cannot give me an answer to why they do what they do, he can only answer why he didn't turn out that way.

"Because my Momma and grandmother wouldn't let me"

Is it that simple? Perhaps.

All he knows is that his mother put herself thru school, became a teacher and refused to be brought down by the ills that have affected so many others.

Three cheers to his mom.

.02

But what happens when a black person overcomes these odds only to have racism kick them right in the face every time they go for a job. I think it is a huge factor, that affect the black community more than any other ethnic group. Some of the answers lie in many peoples well founded prejudices when it comes to blacks. The black community accounts for way more than their share of drug use, violence, ignorance and incarceration.

Giving someone a handout for generations is certainly not the cure, nor is crying racism every time a black is denied something. This is the MO of Jesse Jackson and the Reverend Al Sharpton. Maybe a start will be many years of good behavior from the general population of black people to sway current perceptions, which may spawn more legitimate black roll models than Colin Powell and Condoleeza Rice. (Condoleeza, there's a name for ya Mr. Cosby.)

Having blacks as prosperous contributing members of society will benefit us all, and help to bring the second group of immigrants to the Americas up to the standards of all the rest.

EricSilver · #32 09-18-2006, 01:02 PM

t walgamuth: As always, you deliver a balanced, common sense, and accurate perspective.

Quote:

Originally Posted by t walgamuth

i agree with a lot of the comments but i have a couple of things to add.

first, the comment about coddling i think is not correct. i dont think the blacks in NO were coddled.

and second the ones that didnt get out when the getting was good i think mostly didnt have the wherewithall to get out. and didnt recognize the fact that they were in such danger. in NO folks have ridden out storm after storm and just never conceived that this one was going to be such a killer.

i think a huge percentage of very poor folks, of all colors, just give up on the system. they believe that things are not ever going to be good for them and that the system wont work for them. and folks like that dont even vote mostly. they just think no matter who wins it wont help them. they feel like life is just kicking them in the teeth and have come to expect that and nothing else.

the speaking proper english is an important point for all colors of folks too. and the gangsta look of baggy clothes and sideways caps is just baffling to me. guys walking around holding their pants up by the crotch for a "look" is just astonishing. i couldnt stand that for a minute. ditto tattoos and mulitilple piercings as well. at least with the piercings they will grow back together if they tire of the look.

tom w

t walgamuth · #33 09-18-2006, 01:16 PM

thanks, eric.

folks who immigrate here (by choice) tend to represent the upper echelon of folks who dont already have it made in their native countries.

my german ancestors for example, came here because in germany in the early 1800s (not sure really exactly when) there was no choices for the individual. the burgermeister decided who got opportunities. for the most part whatever station your father occupied you were put there as well.

so the ambitious who werent already doing well came here for economic and religeous freedom.

the asian folks who make it here have to be pretty tenatious to get here. some chinese i know pretty well went to south america and lived and worked there for years before the opportunity to come here came up.

being captured from a tribal cultute and imprisoned and then enslaved for several generations is a whole different matter. individualism was harshly punished. escapees were brutally treated. ambition equally repressed. yesser and nosir were all that were allowed. true feelings repressed. learning to read was against the law.

so now for the last 40 years it has been illegal to discriminate in many different ways but the system and our society has been able to perpetuate a lot of de facto discrimination.

so people do have choices. do they all make good choices? no. will they ever? i pray so. are they coddled? i dont think so.

what happened in NO doesnt surprise me at all. of course hindsite is pretty easy.

tom w

LaughingGravy · #34 09-18-2006, 01:20 PM

My great grandmother arrived here from Europe on the boat at 15 years old (NY) knowing no English at all, sent by her parents to make a better life.
She was here to meet her brother who worked on the docks and had picked up a little English, had a job, and could sponsor her. Two weeks after she arrived, he ended up in the river, via mysterious circumstances, end of that story. Could have been a robbery, who knows? Point was he was dead.
She never saw or heard from her parents again. It was just her.
FF: to today.
Her children made it through school in the US (my grandma and her siblings), my parents were college educated, I'm college educated. Each generation has worked very hard to better themselves. Our kids are each 5 nationalities and speak proper English, with no "Jersey" accent at all.

Parents. Responsibility.

I do thank my parents, grandparents, and great grandparents. Our children will know this as well.

Botnst · #35 09-18-2006, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by riethoven

...Having blacks as prosperous contributing members of society will benefit us all,...

I agree completely and this is where I think it is useful for the individual to make the extra effort to reinforce those qualities in others whenever possible. I don't mean to patronize, I mean to reward. When we are in a position to reward positive behavior, do so. It makes a huge difference in people to know that other folks appreciate their efforts. Letting hard work, good judgment, and good behavior pass by without acknowledging it sends a subtle message of lack of concern about these things.

A kind word of appreciation given to a subordinate or to a young person gives them a real boost. And if he/she is your subordinate, that person will know what it is you are looking for and will try to make sure you get it again. It just means an awful lot to know your boss knows you did well. It also tells them something if the boss never acknowledges good deeds or exceptional performance. Who wants to work for that kind of jackass?

B

t walgamuth · #36 09-18-2006, 01:23 PM

heritage matters.

there is a cumulative effect of cultural morals and ethics, ambition, discipline, and many other things.

you aren't aware of it while you are living it.

tom w

EricSilver · #37 09-18-2006, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by riethoven

Some very hard to swallow realities have been spoken here.
One thing that has not been covered is racism as it pertains to all minorites. Why is it that virtually all nationalities that have come to the US including recent groups such as Indian, Pakastani, Korean and Chinese do not face the same uphill struggle that the average poor black person faces?

Good question. Answers, anyone?

Quote:

Originally Posted by riethoven

But what happens when a black person overcomes these odds only to have racism kick them right in the face every time they go for a job. I think it is a huge factor, that affect the black community more than any other ethnic group.

The higher a black person rises, the wealthier and more accomplished he/she becomes, the more vicious becomes the resentment and racist behavior of other people.

Quote:

Originally Posted by riethoven

Some of the answers lie in many peoples well founded prejudices when it comes to blacks. The black community accounts for way more than their share of drug use, violence, ignorance and incarceration.

Oh really?

Source: Department of Justice (Criminal statistics)

73% of all drug dealers are white males.
98% of white-collar criminals (you know, the Enrons and others) that steal billions of dollars every year from the common citizen in the US are white.
67% of all people on welfare are white.
97% of all serial killers are white.
65% of all drunk driving incidents are white.
86% of all incest is committed by white people.
(And let’s not forget the criminals currently running this country, and the violent acts being committed against the rest of the world.)

What was that biblical quote about pointing out the splinter in someone else’s eye, but not seeing the plank in your own? The Black community is a convenient target of blame for the ills of this country because too many white people refuse to acknowledge and accept the role of their fore parents in creating current social conditions.

Let’s leave slavery out of the equation. Would the conditions in the Black community exist today if there was no LEGALIZED racism for the 100-year period between 1865 and 1965, and if Blacks were fully accepted as members of American society?

It does not require much intelligence to recognize and understand that people who feel rejected by a society will in turn reject it, not accept its values, not go along with its program. Even – correction, especially -- well-off, “well spoken” Blacks have no real love or respect for American culture, largely for the reasons stated in my first comment above.

Since Blacks have only be truly free for 41 years in this country, with the passage of the 1965 Civil Rights Act, and despite having so many artificial barriers to contend with, Black progress has been remarkable -- more so than for any other ethnic group, most of whom would probably have not have fared as well, if at all, under the same circumstances.

With about $700 Billion in disposable income, Black Americans represent the world’s 14th or so largest economy. With momentum moving away from “joining the establishment” to “returning to the community” further economic advancement, and fomenting the sense of belonging necessary for greater advancement, will occur more rapidly. Just as such occurs within every other ethnic group in the country. Will be interesting to revisit this issue in another 40 years.

EricSilver · #38 09-18-2006, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by t walgamuth

so now for the last 40 years it has been illegal to discriminate in many different ways but the system and our society has been able to perpetuate a lot of de facto discrimination.

Exactly. An alcoholic will not sober up if booze is outlawed. Without reprogramming, he will simply find secret ways to indulge his habit.

BENZ-LGB · #39 09-18-2006, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by riethoven

One thing that has not been covered is racism as it pertains to all minorites. Why is it that virtually all nationalities that have come to the US including recent groups such as Indian, Pakastani, Korean and Chinese do not face the same uphill struggle that the average poor black person faces? ...
But what happens when a black person overcomes these odds only to have racism kick them right in the face every time they go for a job. I think it is a huge factor, that affect the black community more than any other ethnic group...
Having blacks as prosperous contributing members of society will benefit us all, and help to bring the second group of immigrants to the Americas up to the standards of all the rest.

I agree with your last statement.

I, however, disagree with your first two statements.

Chinese were the victims of horrible racist practices in California.

They worked hard, became educated and eventually earned the respect of society at large.

It was not an uncommon practice in California to see signs in front of business establishments that read:

"No Chinese or dogs allowed."

In 19th century California, Chinese were de facto slaves, long after slavery had been abolished. .

And yet, in spite of the bitter racism that they were subjected to, Chinese have risen to the point where in California they are the majority of students in the UC university system. They also represent a tiny minority in California's penal system.

Are Chinese kids smarter than black kids? Are Chinese less inclined to commit crimes?

I doubt it.

Chinese-Americans, however, do not have a Jesse Jackson or an Al Sharpton or a Chuckles Rangels (or even a Billary Clinton) tellign them that htey are victims of societal racism and that w/o government help, they ain't gonna make it in whitey's world.

And Chinese have, for the most part, intact families, where the dad and the mom stay together and together bring their children up to become "good people."

And Chinese don't sit around complaining about whitey and do not expect whitey to come offering handouts. They work hard and make it on their own.

To me, that is the biggest difference and that is why, in my opinion, Chinese are so widely accepted in today's society, whereas blacks continue to struggle with negative stereotyping.

I think that Malcom X had it right. Blacks need to make it on their own, w/o government help and w/o handouts.

The kind of self-respect, dignity and hard work that he advocated is the kind of medicine that is hard to swallow, but delivers the right cure in the long run.

BENZ-LGB · #40 09-18-2006, 01:55 PM

Eric:

Please provide a link, or a cite, to the stats that you posted.

I would like ot compare them to the official stats published by the U.S. Dept. of Justice.

Thanks.

EricSilver · #41 09-18-2006, 01:59 PM

By the way, Cosby is part of the problem, not the solution.

What he says is facually correct, but his rhetoric serves no practical purpose. It only enrages the poor Blacks he criticizes, who see him as some rich guy with no insight into their existence, and no real concern -- other than how it makes him look, as he is also Black.

If he was truly concerned, he would be devising, and implementing, creative solutions to the problem. But since he has no clue, he cannot do that.

He is embarrassed by the condition, and lashes out against it in such a useless manner, because it believes that will distance himself from it. But it won't. It only makes other people ask, "Why, as a wealthy Black man, do you do nothing for your own people? Are you no better than the so-called Black Leaders?"

BENZ-LGB · #42 09-18-2006, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricSilver

By the way, Cosby is part of the problem, not the solution.

What he says is facually correct, but his rhetoric serves no practical purpose. It only enrages the poor Blacks he criticizes, who see him as some rich guy with no insight into their existence, and no real concern -- other than how it makes him look, as he is also Black.

If he was truly concerned, he would be devising, and implementing, creative solutions to the problem. But since he has no clue, he cannot do that.

He is embarrassed by the condition, and lashes out against it in such a useless manner, because it believes that will distance himself from it. But it won't. It only makes other people ask, "Why, as a wealthy Black man, do you do nothing for your own people? Are you no better than the so-called Black Leaders?"

I see it as a well-deserved kick in the pants.

He is saying what no one else dares to say. Our society has become paralyzed by PC.

BC has enough fame, and has been well accepted by mainstream society. He doesn't need to distance himself from anything.

EricSilver · #43 09-18-2006, 02:06 PM

They were parsed by a third party from those stats:

DOJ
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/welcome.html

FBI
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/ucr.htm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BENZ-LGB

Eric:

Please provide a link, or a cite, to the stats that you posted.

I would like ot compare them to the official stats published by the U.S. Dept. of Justice.

Thanks.

riethoven · #44 09-18-2006, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riethoven

Some of the answers lie in many peoples well founded prejudices when it comes to blacks. The black community accounts for way more than their share of drug use, violence, ignorance and incarceration.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricSilver

Good question. Answers, anyone?

The higher a black person rises, the wealthier and more accomplished he/she becomes, the more vicious becomes the resentment and racist behavior of other people.

Oh really?

Source: Department of Justice (Criminal statistics)

73% of all drug dealers are white males.
98% of white-collar criminals (you know, the Enrons and others) that steal billions of dollars every year from the common citizen in the US are white.
67% of all people on welfare are white.
97% of all serial killers are white.
65% of all drunk driving incidents are white.
86% of all incest is committed by white people.
(And let’s not forget the criminals currently running this country, and the violent acts being committed against the rest of the world.)

What was that biblical quote about pointing out the splinter in someone else’s eye, but not seeing the plank in your own? The Black community is a convenient target of blame for the ills of this country because too many white people refuse to acknowledge and accept the role of their fore parents in creating current social conditions.

Let’s leave slavery out of the equation. Would the conditions in the Black community exist today if there was no LEGALIZED racism for the 100-year period between 1865 and 1965, and if Blacks were fully accepted as members of American society?

It does not require much intelligence to recognize and understand that people who feel rejected by a society will in turn reject it, not accept its values, not go along with its program. Even – correction, especially -- well-off, “well spoken” Blacks have no real love or respect for American culture, largely for the reasons stated in my first comment above.

Since Blacks have only be truly free for 41 years in this country, with the passage of the 1965 Civil Rights Act, and despite having so many artificial barriers to contend with, Black progress has been remarkable -- more so than for any other ethnic group, most of whom would probably have not have fared as well, if at all, under the same circumstances.

With about $700 Billion in disposable income, Black Americans represent the world’s 14th or so largest economy. With momentum moving away from “joining the establishment” to “returning to the community” further economic advancement, and fomenting the sense of belonging necessary for greater advancement, will occur more rapidly. Just as such occurs within every other ethnic group in the country. Will be interesting to revisit this issue in another 40 years.

I agree when it comes to a people being rejected by a society. I moved from South Florida to Charlotte NC to start the sixth grade just before the start of bussing in Charlotte. It took me a while to figure out why most of the blacks hated the whites and vice versa. It was racism that was deeply engraved in the culture. The black population had been let to know in no uncertain terms that there place was under the white man's.

I can only site one statistic when it comes to the plight of the black community.

Human Rights Watch sites that blacks make up 13% of the US population but are 49% fo the prison population.

The point I was trying to make is that a larger percentage of the black population has problems with illegal drugs, incarceration and lack of education when compared to any other racial group of the population.

I think the only two black serial killers I remember were the one in DC and a few years back one in Atlanta. They must make up for part of that missing 3%.

EricSilver · #45 09-18-2006, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BENZ-LGB

I agree with your last statement.
And Chinese have, for the most part, intact families, where the dad and the mom stay together and together bring their children up to become "good people."

You just identified the problem.

Black families were systematically destroyed through slavery, as were all traditions, norms etc. Do you expect that to spontaneously reappear after hundreds of years with no frame of reference or solid example to follow, while bathing in a cacophony of “no handouts for you!” and “You people are criminals!” and “We owe you nothing!” and “It’s your own fault!”?

Quote:

Originally Posted by BENZ-LGB

I think that Malcom X had it right. Blacks need to make it on their own, w/o government help and w/o handouts.

His message, and that of Minister Farakhan, are far more widely received and accepted by Black people than any others. The deficient element is the “back to the community” collaboration I mentioned in a previous post, and which is building greater momentum. (FYI: Black people do not have a herd mentality, nor do they give a damn about Sharpton/Jackson/Cosby et al.)