We are not here to offer the "world" some kind of "value”, we are here because of a biological event (reproduction) and we live this short life any way, shape, or form we want. If that chosen path includes not having compassion for strangers who are you to say that is right or not?
I don't hear you expressing the same sentiment about the hundreds of thousand of Iraqis the US government wiped out, but of course they are just collateral damage.
He has the right to express his opinion about different people, different cultures, hell, he even has the right to be "racist' if he wants to. Your right is to convey your differing view, but none of you has the right to say that he cannot state his opinion. The only person around here that can take away that opportunity (not his right) is the mod.

As to the Amish looking weird, sure they do, it depends on what background you look at them from. Do they have the right to look that way? Sure they do, just as Kamil has the right to express his opinion. You don’t like it though *****. It seems that certain people around here want to take it upon themselves to decide what other people can say. Freedom of speech? Right, of course as long as the opinion jives well with the 50 or 60 somethings, the old farts, the hypocrites who don’t think twice to make racial insult about Asians or Muslims or Mexicans or Native Indians because driving some old clunker of a Benz, worth a few bucks, somehow gives them special privilege when it comes to offering opinions or making comments.

As to the guy amassing an arsenal, it is clearly as much a fault of his diseased mind as it is the fault of the gun lobby, the sick infatuation that a lot of people seem to have with guns. It is exceedingly difficult to commit mass murder with a kitchen knife. So keep producing those hand guns, those assault rifles and keep making coffins, you will need them for some time to come.
Young people are desensitized to violence, there is not much else on primetime television these days. Kamil is the product of a TV generation, he was brought up in schools with liberal educational values, if you don't like the result don't blame him, blame your schoolboards and lawmakers for taking away teachers' and parents' right to discipline students.

The media, led by cetain groups, is as much at fault here. There is no news like bad news. If it bleeds it leads, etc.

As to some of the Amish, here is an article that you may have missed.
Read the article below, it is a long one but well worth the read. Somehow fearing god doesn’t curtail the sexual appetite in certain circles. Catholic priests anyone?


Good, god-fearing people they must be, they are religious and devoted after all.

http://www.legalaffairs.org/issues/January-February-2005/feature_labi_janfeb05.msp

“LAST MARCH, A DETECTIVE IN WISCONSIN phoned trooper Janice Wilson to tell her about statements that Mary and her family had made about rampant incest in the Amish community in which they grew up. That community is in New Wilmington, Pa., near where Wilson works. When she started investigating, she was stunned to hear reports of extensive sexual abuse, and of births resulting from incest.”

”Amish insiders say the problem is so common that a bishop in the area has preached against it. Johnny Byler said that, growing up in Lawrence County, he thought it was normal to have sex with his sister. "Other kids would talk about it," Johnny said. When I asked Mary's cousin, David Wengerd, whether he had molested his sister in addition to Mary, as Mary has charged, he responded, "I'd rather not answer."

“When Anna turned 11, she told me, her 19-year-old brother began molesting her, stopping just short of intercourse. When he moved away, another 17-year-old brother started raping her. (The court documents involving Anna's family are sealed.) Anna didn't try to stop her brothers at first. "You don't tell your brothers, who are so much older than you, No," she said. But when she got her period at 13 and realized she could have a baby, she started fighting back. "He would make sure he put a lot of pressure on my top so I couldn't breathe," she said of the younger brother.”

“When a social worker visited Anna's home, Anna told her about the sexual abuse. She also reported that her parents were moving the family to Pennsylvania. Laurie Roberts, one of the social workers on Anna's case in Ohio, said she was taught in training that sexual abuse among the Amish is pervasive, and seldom reported. (The problem is significant enough that the counties near Knox publish a pamphlet to educate the Amish about sexual abuse.) Yet the county left Anna in her home. "Oh Gosh, I wish I could get it in those C.S. people that my parents will absolutely kill me now," Anna wrote at the time to a cousin who had left the Amish. The social workers "say you'll have to be hurt by them before we'll do anything about it," she continued.”

Can you spare some compassion for Mary and Anna?


Alex

I truly do wish you guys can see the grins on my face when I post here. I meant no harm with my AMISH post. Most of you guys are very very serious people on here, most of the time I try to bring in some type of humor. It's not like I meant it, what the heck do I care what the AMISH look like anyway? It was supposed to be a joke...I was laughing my butt off as I was posting that.

Now about being insensitive. Let me tell ya something about that and it's a little off topic. Anyway, I'm 24 years old and I got carded, yet again, when going to see a rated R movie about two months ago. I LOOK REALLY REALLY YOUNG FOR MY AGE. My professors usually think that I was moved up in high school, especially when I get my As in class. Moral of my story? I try not to worry about daily events that go on in this world...if I worried too much then I would probably lose my hair and age rather quickly. Seriously though, if you sit in your house and dwell upon the fact that this world is evil then you are doomed to be miserable. Be happy and enjoy life. If any of you ever get a chance to read EPICURUS (341-270BC) make sure to read his very short work called LETTER TO A FRIEND. In other words, he says that in order to gain full happiness in life you basically let go of reality. You ever notice how happy some mentally challenged people are??? (I'm not saying I'm mental though lol)

Have a good night guys....

__________________
Audi TT

Kamil, a thread about the execution of children has no room for humor of any kind.

When you have children you will understand.

That is a transformation I would love to witness.

B

Yes, Kamil IS a product of our "liberal educational values", and I DON'T like the results. But ultimately everyone is responsible for their OWN words and actions... Including Kamil.

I DO lay a lot of blame for these kinds of tragedies on the school boards and lawmakers who are legislatively chipping away at our ability to discipline kids.

Interestingly, those tend to be the same folks that want to take away the right to bear arms as well... which judging from your ridiculous "gun lobby" comment, is an agenda you seem to support.

Hmm....

Now which is it?.... Do you support the morons who are deconstructing our rights?.... Or do you not?...



Mike

__________________
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1979 300 SD
350,000 miles
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1982 300D-gone---sold to a buddy
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1985 300TD
270,000 miles
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1994 E320
not my favorite, but the wife wanted it

www.myspace.com/mikemover
www.myspace.com/openskystudio
www.myspace.com/speedxband
www.myspace.com/openskyseparators
www.myspace.com/doubledrivemusic

I have plenty for them, Alex. Read Med Mech's reply to Kamil, #48 in this thread, and you'll see where I'm coming from.

Doesn't it strike you as slightly hypocritical to castigate me for having an opinion at the very same time you are upholding Kamil's right to express his opinion? And at the same time you attempt to strengthen your argument with completely unrelated facts. I never at any time said the Amish were perfect, nor was I upholding their lifestyle as some sort of paragon of virtue. How does the news article you posted (tragic as it is) in any way lessen the unthinkable tragedy that took place? Was Mary & Anna's plight supposed to justify what happened in that schoolhouse somehow? Did the Amish have it coming? Or for that matter, how does the war in Iraq affect it? But while we're on that topic, I pause and reflect every single time one of my countrymen comes home in a flag-draped coffin. Two of them are making their way home today. But that fact is utterly and completely irrelevant in this discussion.

I'm disappointed that anyone would try and hijack a thread like this and try to connect it in some way to Iraq. That's pretty cheap. I'm also sorry that you don't think you're here to provide value to people. That's pretty sad.

Jonathan

Well, dacia does live up to some of his own words...

He has demonstrated many times that he is here on this message board to "rant", and has contributed little else of value.

So at least he is consistent in that regard.

Also explains why he comes out so strongly in support of Kamil.



Mike

__________________
_____
1979 300 SD
350,000 miles
_____
1982 300D-gone---sold to a buddy
_____
1985 300TD
270,000 miles
_____
1994 E320
not my favorite, but the wife wanted it

www.myspace.com/mikemover
www.myspace.com/openskystudio
www.myspace.com/speedxband
www.myspace.com/openskyseparators
www.myspace.com/doubledrivemusic

Have you ever met Kamil? If not, I don't see how you could possibly make those judgements about him or the education he received. He is severely misguided politically and has bad taste in clothes and music ( ), but the same was true of me when I was his age. I cringe when I think of the things I thought were important back then. Medmech is right about there being no opportunity for humor in this horrible situation, but who doesn't his foot in his mouth every now and then?

I love my old clunker, a 190SL with 36k miles.

My check for NRA dues went out a few days ago, and I'm looking forward finally bagging that elusive 9 point buck this year. Yummy, I can't wait to have some venison burgers.

Have to go now, I'm off to the gun range.

When someone here admits that they post for giggles sometimes to see the reaction, all you can do is take it in, and try to understand where it comes from.

I don't believe in censorship of this forum and I think the mods have done a fine job.

Ignore is a great thing, whether used as a function of the forum software, or just ignoring the post if you think it's so off base.

I don't believe there can be any humor about this event, especially along the lines of something as juvenile as the Amish looking wierd.

I'd like to think that all of us who post here on a regular basis are above that sort of thing, especially when going to a "higher institution of learning".

My hope when I post is to say something constructive, thought provoking, or ask a serious question, instead of just putting something out there to get a reaction.

I might not do that all the time, but I try.

Back on topic to end this post:
In the realm of "Was there anything that could have been done to prevent it?",
I have to say, yes.

Within reason, I'm not so sure.
There is risk in everything.
Shooting of Amish girls by the milkman is beyond what I would ever expect as reasonable as far as a risk. It's up there with expecting to be hit by a meteorite.

__________________
85' 300D No inspection, No registration fees, Cheap insurance
"If my calculations are correct, when this baby hits 88 miles per hour, you're going to see some serious %$&^."

Good post.

B

I have opinions that sometimes differs from the consensus here, if you consider it a “rant” so be it. You live in airconditioned comfort, absorb information that is spoonfed to you, bombarded with propaganda from your 24 hours "news" stations. Get out, travel around, live on different continents for a while, learn a new language, and sometimes take off those oh so f****ng american sunglasses, they offer you a rather myopic view of the world.
In this thread I support Kamil's right to state his opinion the same way you express yours. Some people called for his silencing, it is not their call to make.

What I have issue with is the selected compassion that goes around here, as if some lives worth more than others. I don't remember once reading a thread that spoke the same way about the loss of children's lives in other countries, so it is hypocritical to chastise Kamil for not having “enough’ compassion for these dead children. Those very service men who sometimes come back in body bags do kill children in other countries as we speak. It may be an accident on occasion, other times may not, I don’t think the parents sleep better either way. I have yet to hear a single word offering compassion to them. Of course it doesn’t lessen the current tragedy but it shows the hypocrisy of some of the posters here.
Those soldiers willingly chose an occupation where their job is to kill others. They are shooting people in a country 15,000 miles away in the name of “our” freedom. They had it “coming to them”, the girls didn’t. 15% of the Canadian losses are due to "friendly" fire.

I brought that article into the discussion because some comments seem to have elevated the Amish to a special status.
They do look “weird’, personal tragedy or not, and they have quite a house cleaning to do.
That look however have (or should have ) nothing to do with the tragedy. It happened because some unstable individual was able to obtain weapons.
In a civil society members of the public should have no need to have or, in some states these days, carry a weapon. And yes, hunting with guns is despicable. People who kill animals for the “entertainment” value of it are serious psychopaths. If you want to hunt for food, get a bow and a knife, stake out that deer and shoot it. Blasting a defenseless animal from hundreds of yards away is disgusting. You want to call it a sport, give that moose a gun and see who is better.

“I'm also sorry that you don't think you're here to provide value to people. That's pretty sad.”

It is not my job or responsibility to “provide” value to people, it is my choice. Perhaps you look at your existence as a social engineer’s wetdream. I approach it differently. If you want to "serve" people with such fervor perhaps consider a flight to PRK, I believe that is the only place where that notion haven’t been discredited yet. But then again the way Canada is progressing you may do well holding on to that plain ticket for just a little while. You can “serve” people soon enough.

Kamil is only 24 with a mindset and outlook of an 18 year old. I wonder how many of those so bloody morally superior old farts around here were so much smarter at that age? If I do my calculations correctly they were exactly at that age around Woodstock, and some of them may have snorted, smoked or shot copious amounts of illegal substances into their body, but now they are all acting like saints. How easy it is to forget one’s youthful transgressions? Kamil has a lot of growing up to do, it may or may not happen, silencing him would not do any good, his hanging around may actually do him some favor.
Not to mention the fact that he is damn right to express his opinion, no matter how stupid some may perceive it.

Alex

Kamil bugs me sometimes too but he is one of us, an American. We can choose to reject and scorn him or we can consider that we're all hear to educate each other, at least to some degree.

I like the old black bluesman expression "I was young then, I was learnin' by bein' a fool."

A few hard or maybe mild slaps from us old-timers are what young-uns need, now and then. And whatyaknow, we're available for that service.

__________________
Te futueo et caballum tuum

1986 300SDL, 362K
1984 300D, 138K

These threads always seem to descend to the highest ego.

I recall a death announcement of a colleague, the first one I ever got via an email. I thought it was vaguely tacky having his demise wired around like that. But I figured maybe its just how things will be done from now on.

I have since seen several more, along with e-birthday cards, Christmas greetings, etc., and I still think its cheezy to transmitting heart-felt thoughts and events over a 'junk' medium. Maybe I'm just old fashioned. Some things are more appropriately said and shared on paper.

__________________
1985 380SE Blue/Blue - 230,000 miles
2012 Subaru Forester 5-speed
2005 Toyota Sienna
2004 Chrysler Sebring convertible
1999 Toyota Tacoma

[QUOTE]Originally Posted by riethoven
Maybe easy access to guns. He would have had a hard time doing that with a knife. Whackjob + easy access to guns = events like this. It is like nukes but most every US citizen can have one. I feel more secure already.

How is it irrelevant? If he didn't have access to guns, he would have had a hard time doing this. The gun lobby will argue against me all day, but the first thing the BBC came out with regarding this story was the easy access to guns in the US and that PA is one of the more lenient states.

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Doug

1987 300TD x 3
2005 E320CDI