Torture - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

Botnst · #1 10-22-2007, 07:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmac2012

...
1. Captured on our shores. That's key. As far as being illegal combatants, the teeming masses who hate us will see this as us making up rules to suit us.

2. As I've said before, for them to dress up in uniform and meet us on the open plains for battle would mean their rapid annihilation. Who is going to essentially say, "defeat us at once, imperialist dogs."

1. Clarify, please.

2. Well golly-gee, Wally, if they can't fight fairly and according to the rules, getting all f**king goody-two-shoes about the interrogation of the murdering bastards in GTMO seems self-defeating.

Oh wait, I got now.

B

tankdriver · #2 10-22-2007, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

2. Well golly-gee, Wally, if they can't fight fairly and according to the rules, getting all f**king goody-two-shoes about the interrogation of the possible murdering bastards in GTMO seems self-defeating.

Oh wait, I got now.

B

FYP.
I see no reason to abandon our morality because they have.

Botnst · #3 10-22-2007, 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tankdriver

FYP.
I see no reason to abandon our morality because they have.

Rules? In a knife fight?

tankdriver · #4 10-22-2007, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

Rules? In a knife fight?

Morality transcends rules.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

How about "Because it puts us at a severe disadvantage."? Or how about "Because we would be stupid to insist that they play by our rules instead of us playing by the rules of the game."? Some card games have rules that vary based on where you are playing. Are you telling me you play by the rules of the game at that place or do you play by the rules of the casino you usually go to?

I don't insist they play by our rules. I don't get to decide that. We do get to decide how we act. Or have the illusion of that choice anyway.

aklim · #5 10-22-2007, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tankdriver

Morality transcends rules.

I don't insist they play by our rules. I don't get to decide that. We do get to decide how we act. Or have the illusion of that choice anyway.

Well, I suppose if we go by that, would it matter who judges us later on? I mean, morality is only good if you are alive. Would morality matter to the dead? I think not.

And so far, we have decided poorly. So, which is better? A live immoral person or a dead moral person. I don't know about you but I take living if I were offered the choice.

aklim · #6 10-22-2007, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tankdriver

FYP.
I see no reason to abandon our morality because they have.

How about "Because it puts us at a severe disadvantage."? Or how about "Because we would be stupid to insist that they play by our rules instead of us playing by the rules of the game."? Some card games have rules that vary based on where you are playing. Are you telling me you play by the rules of the game at that place or do you play by the rules of the casino you usually go to?

Medmech · #7 10-22-2007, 10:43 AM

Anyone that has been through SERE had a chance to go through water boarding, it can be the longest 5-10 seconds of your life, people trained to resist water boarding can make it 30 seconds, which used to be a requirement from what I gather this is not longer a requirement. With that said almost all SF personal Air Force pilots and some Soldiers go through the SERE training and go through all of the allowed interrogation techniques so why should it be illegal to put people through the same punishment we subject our own soldiers to?

. Water Boarding: The prisoner is bound to an inclined board, feet raised and head slightly below the feet. Cellophane is wrapped over the prisoner's face and water is poured over him. Unavoidably, the gag reflex kicks in and a terrifying fear of drowning leads to almost instant pleas to bring the treatment to a halt.
According to the sources, CIA officers who subjected themselves to the water boarding technique lasted an average of 14 seconds before caving in. They said al Qaeda's toughest prisoner, Khalid Sheik Mohammed, won the admiration of interrogators when he was able to last between two and two-and-a-half minutes before begging to confess.
"The person believes they are being killed, and as such, it really amounts to a mock execution, which is illegal under international law," said John Sifton of Human Rights Watch.

Txjake · #8 10-22-2007, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Howitzer

Anyone that has been through SERE had a chance to go through water boarding, it can be the longest 5-10 seconds of your life, people trained to resist water boarding can make it 30 seconds, which used to be a requirement from what I gather this is not longer a requirement. With that said almost all SF personal Air Force pilots and some Soldiers go through the SERE training and go through all of the allowed interrogation techniques so why should it be illegal to put people through the same punishment we subject our own soldiers to?

. Water Boarding: The prisoner is bound to an inclined board, feet raised and head slightly below the feet. Cellophane is wrapped over the prisoner's face and water is poured over him. Unavoidably, the gag reflex kicks in and a terrifying fear of drowning leads to almost instant pleas to bring the treatment to a halt.
According to the sources, CIA officers who subjected themselves to the water boarding technique lasted an average of 14 seconds before caving in. They said al Qaeda's toughest prisoner, Khalid Sheik Mohammed, won the admiration of interrogators when he was able to last between two and two-and-a-half minutes before begging to confess.
"The person believes they are being killed, and as such, it really amounts to a mock execution, which is illegal under international law," said John Sifton of Human Rights Watch.

I have been through SERE...waterboarding is a ***** and you do feel like you are gonna die..... 5 - 10 seconds of it seems like an hour. Khalid SM must have nerves of steel, in addition to knowing that we don't kill folks in interrogation......

Medmech · #9 10-22-2007, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Txjake

I have been through SERE...waterboarding is a ***** and you do feel like you are gonna die..... 5 - 10 seconds of it seems like an hour. Khalid SM must have nerves of steel, in addition to knowing that we don't kill folks in interrogation......

I was waiting for you to post because I was pretty sure with your TIS you did the SERE, did you do it at Lewis or Bragg? I made it about 10 seconds but gave up fairly easy but like you said it seems like a years 2 or 3 more seconds would be like an eternity.

I also learned that coughing is NOT involuntary.

Botnst · #10 10-22-2007, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Howitzer

I was waiting for you to post because I was pretty sure with your TIS you did the SERE, did you do it at Lewis or Bragg? I made it about 10 seconds but gave up fairly easy but like you said it seems like a years 2 or 3 more seconds would be like an eternity.

I also learned that coughing is NOT involuntary.

Discussion of so-called torture reminds me of that AZ sheriff that dresses prisoners in pnk coveralls, has only disney (or the sheriff, reading children's stories) on TV and his prisoners in tents. Is that "cruel and unusual"?

B

aklim · #11 10-22-2007, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Howitzer

"The person believes they are being killed, and as such, it really amounts to a mock execution, which is illegal under international law," said John Sifton of Human Rights Watch.

So is beheading of captives but it happens. GC crap was written a long time ago in a very different situation. The captives are fighting with tomorrow's tactics while we are fighting with yesterday' tactics.

Medmech · #12 10-22-2007, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

So is beheading of captives but it happens. GC crap was written a long time ago in a very different situation. The captives are fighting with tomorrow's tactics while we are fighting with yesterday' tactics.

Why are you quoting me?

aklim · #13 10-22-2007, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Howitzer

Why are you quoting me?

Because John Sifton doesn't have a Userid for me to quote? You are the next best thing.

Medmech · #14 10-22-2007, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

So is beheading of captives but it happens. GC crap was written a long time ago in a very different situation. The captives are fighting with tomorrow's tactics while we are fighting with yesterday' tactics.

Stupid is Stupid does.

Mistress · #15 10-22-2007, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Howitzer

Anyone that has been through SERE had a chance to go through water boarding, it can be the longest 5-10 seconds of your life, people trained to resist water boarding can make it 30 seconds, which used to be a requirement from what I gather this is not longer a requirement. With that said almost all SF personal Air Force pilots and some Soldiers go through the SERE training and go through all of the allowed interrogation techniques so why should it be illegal to put people through the same punishment we subject our own soldiers to?

. Water Boarding: The prisoner is bound to an inclined board, feet raised and head slightly below the feet. Cellophane is wrapped over the prisoner's face and water is poured over him. Unavoidably, the gag reflex kicks in and a terrifying fear of drowning leads to almost instant pleas to bring the treatment to a halt.
According to the sources, CIA officers who subjected themselves to the water boarding technique lasted an average of 14 seconds before caving in. They said al Qaeda's toughest prisoner, Khalid Sheik Mohammed, won the admiration of interrogators when he was able to last between two and two-and-a-half minutes before begging to confess.
"The person believes they are being killed, and as such, it really amounts to a mock execution, which is illegal under international law," said John Sifton of Human Rights Watch.

Can you explain what Chinese water torture is?