The Osprey: A Flying Shame - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

cmac2012 · #1 01-08-2008, 11:54 PM

I saw the Time Magazine with the Osprey on the cover a while back and meant to read it. I happened to see the same issue on a friend's recycle pile recently so I grabbed it.

What a strange story. Dick Cheney himself tried to cancel it 4 times but couldn't. It strikes me as one of those projects that we humans simply cannot accept the impracticality of.

As the story points out, it doesn't even have a forward mounted gun. The 50 cal. Gatling gun proved to be too heavy and costly. It has one 30 cal. machine gun but it only shoots backwards and only with the tailgate lowered.

So far, some $20 billion and the lives of 30 men have been invested in this thing and it was recently shipped off to do duty in Iraq. One wonders what twists and turns this story will take.

t walgamuth · #2 01-09-2008, 06:22 AM

I imagine the desert dust will make it even more unreliable.

Seems like the maximum example of throwing good money after bad.

Tom W

dynalow · #3 01-09-2008, 08:52 AM

In Iraq, Osprey Disproving the Cynics
Dallas Morning News | January 07, 2008

ANBAR PROVINCE, Iraq - On a clear, cool December morning, two odd-looking military aircraft zip along 8,000 feet above the empty desert of western Iraq, preparing to perform a feat worthy of science fiction.

As the V-22 Ospreys approach their dusty destination, a lonely Marine Corps outpost near the Syrian border, each craft's huge wingtip rotors, now serving as propellers, will steadily tilt upward - and in effect turn the two airplanes into helicopters to land.

Over the past three months, the Osprey's trick of transforming itself has become an everyday sight over Anbar province, where 10 of the Texas-built tiltrotor transports have been flying in a combat zone for the first time in the V-22's tumultuous 24-year history.

So far, the Osprey has defied the dire predictions of its most severe critics. Citing the V-22's record of four crashes and 30 deaths in test flights prior to 2001, some foes of the tiltrotor forecast more crashes and deaths in Iraq.

As of Dec. 28, three months through a scheduled seven-month deployment, the 23 pilots of Marine Medium Tiltrotor Squadron 263, known as VMM-263, had logged 1,639 hours of flight time in Iraq, carried 6,826 passengers and delivered 631,837 pounds of cargo without a mishap or even a close call.

That's good news not only for the Marines but also for Bell Helicopter Textron Inc. of Fort Worth, Texas, and Boeing Co.'s helicopter division, near Philadelphia, which make the Osprey in a 50-50 partnership. About 2,500 Bell employees work on the Osprey in Fort Worth and Amarillo, where V-22s are assembled.

The Marines plan to buy 360 Ospreys in all. The Air Force is set to purchase 50 and may buy more, for special operations. The companies hope to sell dozens more to the Navy and potential foreign customers as well. An unsuccessful first V-22 deployment could torpedo those sales.

Headquartered at Al Asad, an isolated air base in the desert about 110 miles west of Baghdad, VMM-263's Ospreys spent their first two months in Iraq largely flying "general support" missions - hauling troops and supplies to and from forward operating bases.

"As long as they keep using it like a truck, I think they'll probably be okay," said Philip Coyle, a former Pentagon weapons testing director and a longtime Osprey critic.

In December, VMM-263 began to take on riskier tasks.

On Dec. 6, two of the Ospreys carried 24 combat-loaded Marines and 24 Iraqi troops on a raid near Lake Tharthar, 150 miles north of Baghdad, to look for suspected insurgents.

"It turned out to be a dry hole, there was nothing there," said Capt. Drew Norris, 30, of Dallas, a graduate of Jesuit College Preparatory School and Texas A&M University who was one of the pilots on the raid. As for the flight, he said, "It went off without a hitch."

Two days later, two Ospreys were included for the first time in a well-established mission called "aeroscout," a sort of roving raid in which troops aboard helicopters search for insurgents by air. The ground troops commander scrubbed the mission when one Osprey needed to turn back to base because one of its four generators failed.

The generator failure is symptomatic of one big question hanging over the Osprey in Iraq: is the $70 million aircraft reliable enough, or does it "break" too often?
One of the squadron's 10 Ospreys had to land in Jordan on the way into Iraq in October and spend a couple of days there being fixed after a wiring problem led the pilots to make a precautionary landing. Others have been grounded for days at a time for similar problems in Iraq.

"That's the kind of thing that has plagued the Osprey, reliability failures of one kind or another," Coyle said.

VMM-263 brought 14 contractor technicians with them to help deal with such problems, and the Marine Corps and contractors have taken pains to make sure the squadron gets all the parts it needs.

The squadron's readiness rate in Iraq - how many aircraft are ready to fly - has varied from as low as 50 percent to 100 percent on a given day, said Chief Warrant Officer 2 Carlos Rios, maintenance material control chief. But the key question is whether enough aircraft are available for the missions the squadron is assigned, he said.

Lt. Col. Paul Rock, commander of VMM-263, said his squadron had been forced to turn down taskings for lack of aircraft only "one or two days" during its first two months in Iraq.

In addition to flying troops and supplies, meanwhile, the Ospreys have become a favorite way to fly for VIPs, such as generals who need a fast way to get to the Marines' forward operating bases, which have no runways. Anbar is roughly the size of South Carolina.

The Osprey can take off and land like a helicopter but tilts its rotors all the way forward to fly like an airplane. That lets it fly more than twice as fast and far as the CH-46 Sea Knight helicopters the Marines are buying it to replace. It cruises thousands of feet higher than helicopters do, as well.

The debate over the V-22 is far from over, though, in part because while the Osprey is flying in a combat zone, there isn't much actual combat in their zone these days.

When the Marines decided to send the Osprey to Iraq, Anbar was the hotbed of the Sunni Muslim insurgency that wracked Iraq after the U.S.-led invasion of 2003. By the time the squadron arrived in October, Sunni rebels had turned against the jihadists affiliated with al-Qaida and have been helping rather than attacking U.S. forces.

Through mid-December, none of VMM-263's pilots had reported any evidence of being shot at, though some had seen tracer rounds well below them while flying at night.

Under the circumstances, some critics might say that the Osprey isn't really being tested, but "people are too impatient," said V-22 advocate Loren Thompson, a defense analyst with the Lexington Institute, a Washington think tank with close ties to the defense industry.

"The kind of harrowing operations that people anticipated haven't occurred so far, but what we're learning about the V-22 in Iraq is that it can operate every day, it can perform a wide range of missions, and - at least so far - it does not have deficient reliability," he said. "However, there's a long way to go before we grasp the potential of this aircraft. This is just the beginning."

Dee8go · #4 01-09-2008, 10:01 AM

Just 20 billion? Is THAT all?

WVOtoGO · #5 01-09-2008, 01:20 PM

Bell: We have a great design concept that we’d like to get military/government funding and contracts for.

Mil/Gov: Sorry, that’s too much money and we don’t have a need for it.

Bell: Ok. No problem. We also have Japan looking to invest, and we’ll make it a civilian application aircraft.

Mil/Gov: Fine.

Bell: Just keep in mind that if you change your mind after we’ve gone ahead with it, it’s going to cost you far more than you could ever imagine.

Mil/Gov: (After a few flashbacks of what Boeing did to them with the 720/707 project.) Well, Ok then. Let’s see what you have.

Dee8go · #6 01-09-2008, 01:21 PM

The world of government contracting is not like anything else . . .

WVOtoGO · #7 01-09-2008, 01:26 PM

Easy to follow though... once you've figure out who’s in who’s pocket.

Botnst · #8 01-09-2008, 01:27 PM

I heard on the news that the aircraft has parts built in 40 states, I believe. Who could vote against that?

B

Medmech · #9 01-09-2008, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

I heard on the news that the aircraft has parts built in 40 states, I believe. Who could vote against that?

B

Wyoming did

I'll guess that they are in the other 10.

Medmech · #10 01-09-2008, 01:35 PM

They also continuously comment about replacing the CH-47's because they are "old" depite the fact that they are still the most versatile/reliable aircraft in the military inventory.

Dee8go · #11 01-09-2008, 01:36 PM

In politics any high-mindedness is only found in speeches prior to the election. Once it's time to vote self-interest always rules the day!

LUVMBDiesels · #12 01-09-2008, 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dee8go

The world of government contracting is not like anything else . . .

Very true.. I met a girl who works for the Dept of the Navy in the Bureau of Ships -- they build the capital ships for the Navy.

She frequently had contracts for 11 or 12 BILLION go past her desk!
It takes a lot to build a destroyer (a throwaway ship?) not to mention an aircraft carrier which I would be afraid to imagine the cost of.

With the Osprey, the costs will go down for the second and third runs once all the bugs have been worked out. The contractors will make mucho bucks on the upgrades to existing ones at that time

Hatterasguy · #13 01-09-2008, 02:16 PM

I can't beleive this thing got funding and they killed the Comanche, that was the best freaken chopper they had in the pipe line. Now they are stuck with the museum piece Cobra's, and the old Apache.

Hatterasguy · #14 01-09-2008, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LUVMBDiesels

Very true.. I met a girl who works for the Dept of the Navy in the Bureau of Ships -- they build the capital ships for the Navy.

She frequently had contracts for 11 or 12 BILLION go past her desk!
It takes a lot to build a destroyer (a throwaway ship?) not to mention an aircraft carrier which I would be afraid to imagine the cost of.

IMHO the navy is the best bang for our buck investment this country can make.

Mistress · #15 01-09-2008, 02:46 PM

Communism works too- ON PAPER.