Carl, you old hippie...how the hell have you been? Haven't seen many of your posts around.

I may be going to Sacramento soon again. Maybe we can go back to that Mexican restaurant, or maybe even visit the Peruvian restaurant that Jim wanted to go to the last time.

BTW, when have you ever worried about being an ass. Please don't start worrying now. It is a bit too late now to start worrying about that.


Grok, that is a word I had not heard or read since the last time I read Stranger in a Strange Land. BTW, I recently bought the "un-edited" version of it. Soemthing that Heinlen's widow put out for fans to compare it to the sanitized version that most of us read. I still have not finished reading it...maybe if I spent less time here.

Maybe I have it a litlte backwars. I am not really interested in gaining converts. I suppose that in the early days of the church it was important to get converts and grow the faith. Nowadays it does not seem as important.

And you are right, I am throwing the gauntlet out there. I guess I am just no in the mood to put up with people picking on my religion and faith. Like I said, I couldn't care less what a person believes in (as long as it is not Kommunism, of course ). But if someone wants to attack my faith, then they will be in for a fight. Maybe not very Christian, but it is very ME--and I've got to be me!

Take care Carl. Post more.

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Current Benzes

1989 300TE "Alice"
1990 300CE "Sam Spade"
1991 300CE "Beowulf" RIP (06.1991 - 10.10.2007)
1998 E320 "Orson"
2002 C320 Wagon "Molly Fox"

Res non semper sunt quae esse videntur

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Not in this weather!

St Augustine, probably the most influential proponent of original sin, said that original sin was passed to the next generation thru the act of sexual orgasm. Orgasm is the most selfish and irrational act we can do, hence dooming all children conceived thru an organism to a soul infected with sin.

It apparently never occurred to Augustine that women were better than men because they could conceive a child without having to orgasm. Or, perhaps it might be better to think that since women were not rational like men, they couldn't corrupt their rationality with an orgasm because they didn't have rationality to start with.

__________________
1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13

MS Fowler has tended to suggest that he takes the bible more or less literally and seems to disagree with interpretation of it, so that is the reason I brought the question up.

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Re-read Genesis.


No, it is VERY relevant. I like knowing that I hold the key to my own salvation.

Whether I am saved or not, is entirely up to me. I like that, because I like to take responsibility for my actions. If I end up in hell, it is no one's fault but my own--and I will blame no one.

I rather like the concept of freewill. I don't want anyone choosing for me. Right or wrong it is my decision. I really like that.

Where do you get that he is blaming us? What is your evidence for that.

He is not blaming anyone. He is just saying, these are the rules. You can play by them or not, it is entirely up to you.

I am a prosecutor and I hope to some day become a judge. Everyday in court I hear criminals blame everyone BUT themselves for their cirmes. "Society made me do it" or "The law made me do it" or "It is my parents fault" (and the one I really hate) "She (the rape victim) made me do it."

I tis always everyone else's fault. We can all chose to lead a sinful life or a good life. The choice is ours. Or, as the Gladiator said "What we do in this life follows us into eternity."

Interesting concept, could you give me an example of a situation where your child would do something wrong through a fault of your own. And please, refer to the actions of an adult child, since (almost by definition) children don't know what they are doing.

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Current Benzes

1989 300TE "Alice"
1990 300CE "Sam Spade"
1991 300CE "Beowulf" RIP (06.1991 - 10.10.2007)
1998 E320 "Orson"
2002 C320 Wagon "Molly Fox"

Res non semper sunt quae esse videntur

My Gallery

Not in this weather!

That's all a parcel of horse*****.Augustine,Simon Peter and many other"fathers"of the church of Rome were crusty misogynists who's aim was was political control thru spiritual means.

Each orgasm a woman gives a man,or a man gives a woman is a true hymn of praise to the creator.

It is good that you can admit that you can care about someone's beliefs. Let me ask you, why do you find communism abhorrent as a view in another?

Could it be, perhaps, that you fear a push for changing our country and its laws to become more communistic? I would fear that, just as I fear the very-real push toward Christianity that we have today.

Your concept of free will is a concept held by a modern lawyer in a democratic society. It is not the concept of free will associated with orthodox views of original sin and human freedom. For Augustine and other very influential Church Fathers, free will simply meant that you got to think about choices in your own head, but you couldn't choose anything other than what God had predetermined that you would do. In other words, what you complain about in regards to criminals blaming their actions on other people or society is precisely what early Christians thought was going on. They said God was causing everything. They still thought we were responsible because we got to think about alternative choices, even though the possibilities which God had not pre-determined were not possible. I agree with your modern view. A person has to have real choices in order to be held responsible. By
'real' I mean 'could have done differently than what he or she did". The orthodox idea of original sin completely rejects this view of human freedom. Since we are all born in sin, none of us has any real ability to do good. Under those circumstances, I believe it is entirely reasonable to blame God for what happened. This is exactly, why your original statement of how salvation occurred is not orthodox. I think you wrote, 'Thru Faith by Grace", the orthodox view is 'By Grace thru Faith'. It is written this way by orthodox Christian theologians because they hold that no person can have faith until God gives them grace.

To put it impolitely, you, like me, are a Pelagian heretic.

__________________
1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13

The problem is that there are and have been many people throughout the world who have never been exposed to Christianity, or who have grown up entrenched in a society which completely revolves around other religious ideas which they are unlikely to ever escape.

Have you ever considered what it would be like to grow up in the bush in the middle of Africa? To be born in an Islamic village somewhere in the Middle East? To be born in the 1300's on an island in the Pacific? You would have no exposure to Christianity (except perhaps by some invaders who kill your family and steal your land and/or resources).

According to the interpretations in Christianity, these people are going to hell. By no choice of your own, you would be "born to burn."

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Very sad to see all these people who have been indoctrinated.

Reminds of when i was living on vodka and vikes and still walked out of two rehabs - "if you don't choose AA, you will die", they told me. They seemed disappointed when I quit all by myself.

OOPS. Nevermind.

B

[QUOTE=BENZ-LGB;1930072]And your little dog, too!

I hope that you recognized my sarcasm in the previous post. There were so many strawmen erected around you and so many people shooting at them that I wasn't sure you'd even notice my shot.

B

Just remember: There's no womb at the top!

well - to think i took all this seriously.

should have known you were all just performing.

after all, who could believe in all this foolishness.

If they are right so is the doctrine of every other religion on earth.

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99 Gurkha with OM616 IDI turbo

2015 Gurkha with OM616 DI turbo

2014 Rexton W with OM612 VGT

Yup, what if these guys are right and all you Jesus worshipers are going to burn in hell?


Supporters of the Islamic Defence Front stage a demonstration in Jakarta, Indonesia, demanding the disbandment of an Islamic sect they believe to be heretical.

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Past MB's: '96 E300D, '83 240D, '82 300D, '87 300D, '87 420SEL