Mmmmm, roast double-breasted veeblefeester in a light mustard honey glaze? Sooo tasty!

I believe one of their selling points was the use of existing petroleum refining infra-structure.

I do question the casual way they said, "10% of the area of New Mexico". That's a LOT of territory.

There's about a gadzillion acres of land suitable for the purpose scattered all across the Southwestern states. The existing train lines are still there from the old mining days. I imagine they were thinking of New Mexico because of it's proximity to the Texas refineries.

It's just a pipe dream for now (which also reminds me of the gas/oil pipelines stretching from California to Houston) but it's working in the right direction.

Dino-oil is a finite resource which will always be subject to the highest bidder or strongest country. Let's see OPEC or Chavez try their posturing with the economic/military might of China or Korea.

That's the problem, isn't it. Not all good things are profitable. That's where the government is needed.

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2004 VW Jetta TDI (manual)

Past MB's: '96 E300D, '83 240D, '82 300D, '87 300D, '87 420SEL

If it isn't profitable, why do it?

If there's a regulatory role then the government needs to be involved.

I think you misunderstand me. Let me rephrase it. If you paid the private companies as much as you paid the govt, they would do it in your timeframe. Now, you look on it as "Well, I asked them and they delivered. It's a miracle. Didn't cost me money either." It's so easy. We pay fuel tax at the pump and the govt uses the tax money to fix the road. The state took the tobacco windfall and is working on programs to get us off cigs. Cool. Do you know where your money went? Do you even understand what you are being taxed for and why?

The difference would be that the govt takes it here and there and over there to the point you don't know what is going on. Private companies might ask for it in an invoice and that you do know. I don't think you are paying anything less. You just don't notice it as much.

Take a simple case. In Madison, they promised us that the recycling program would pay for itself in 10 yrs. As such, they would tax the companies for only that long. That was SUPPOSED to be ending in 2000. Cool. We got recycling and we didn't have to pay a penny? Really? Well the companies passed it along to you. But still, it ends in 10 years, right? An individual contractor would have sent you an invoice and would be less transparent. Final analysis is that we got it but not at the price we were told because the recycling material prices went down, the dollar does this, the DM did that, the wind blew south, blah, blah, blah. But hey, we didn't see it so it can't be happening, right?

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01 Ford Excursion Powerstroke
99 E300 Turbodiesel
91 Vette with 383 motor
05 Polaris Sportsman 800 EFI
06 Polaris Sportsman 500 EFI
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Red
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Yellow
04 Tailgator 21 ft Toy Hauler
11 Harley Davidson 883 SuperLow

I mean, if my health insurance companies bottom line is healthy, I am healthy...

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When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace.
Jimi Hendrix

Huh?

So are you saying that the govt should have never required companies to remove lead from gasoline or from kid's toys? Or they should have never required mandatory crash testing? None of these things are profitable. All they do is help save human lives and/or the environment. I guess that's a worthless endeavor according to you.

__________________
2004 VW Jetta TDI (manual)

Past MB's: '96 E300D, '83 240D, '82 300D, '87 300D, '87 420SEL

Again, NO. Nobody is saying that what they have done is totally worthless. But OTOH, you cannot tell me what is the true cost we have paid, can you?

Like I said, show me that they can balance the budget using ACCRUAL ACCOUNTING and not COST ACCOUNTING and I'll believe they have kicked the tax and spend habit and are worthy of more trust. They can't even rein their spending in and you think that they are worthy of more responsibility and thus more money? How did you come up with that conclusion?

__________________
01 Ford Excursion Powerstroke
99 E300 Turbodiesel
91 Vette with 383 motor
05 Polaris Sportsman 800 EFI
06 Polaris Sportsman 500 EFI
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Red
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Yellow
04 Tailgator 21 ft Toy Hauler
11 Harley Davidson 883 SuperLow

I don't know why we're even discussing this. All I was originally saying is that we need tax incentives for alternative energy and an oil price floor. The government wouldn't be getting any extra money from this, in fact the tax incentives would COST the govt more money. Isn't that what you want?

__________________
2004 VW Jetta TDI (manual)

Past MB's: '96 E300D, '83 240D, '82 300D, '87 300D, '87 420SEL

Like I said, do you know what you are paying for? I freely admit, I don't. I might if I spent my days tracking where every dollar TRULY goes. So to answer your question, NO!!

This is why. Do you think they will take it lying down that they have less money? Gov Doyle "borrowed" money from the road tax fund to balance his budget. Tobacco settlements? Long gone to balance the budget and pay for the other programs and incentives like these.

Once again, do you know what you are really paying for?

I know we have differences in opinions but please, please tell me that you are not so naive to believe that the govt will now say "Oh, I have paid out money for incentives. This means I have less to throw around. Best spend it wisely.". Seriously, don't you think they will increase the taxes somewhere else? IOW Steal from Peter to pay Paul? You WILL pay for it in the end. Either they will raise taxes, borrow or do something else stupid. They will NOT rein in spending or be sensible

Note. While I do like the direction this research is going, I would rather not kill it with federal involvement in trying to get it to speed. Lets let it take it's course.

__________________
01 Ford Excursion Powerstroke
99 E300 Turbodiesel
91 Vette with 383 motor
05 Polaris Sportsman 800 EFI
06 Polaris Sportsman 500 EFI
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Red
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Yellow
04 Tailgator 21 ft Toy Hauler
11 Harley Davidson 883 SuperLow

You don't understand what a tax incentive is, do you?

__________________
2004 VW Jetta TDI (manual)

Past MB's: '96 E300D, '83 240D, '82 300D, '87 300D, '87 420SEL

Not totally but feel free to explain it to me. From what I can see, they would tax a certain industry they favored less in one way or the other. What I don't see is how doing that can mean it, as you put it "costs" the govt money but won't make them decide to take it from somewhere else.

Say they gave Company X a loan guarantee to help them get started, it has to cost some money somewhere. Where does this money come from?

I'm not being sarcastic but I don't see how you figure that their involvement is free. There HAS to be a price somewhere. You seem to be of the opinion that they can do something and NOT incur a cost while promoting something. That is a concept I am unfamiliar with. Perhaps you can explain to me how that is achieved.

Don't get me wrong. This LOOKS promising and might be an answer to some of our money issues if it works out. However, based on their past history of things getting more complicated with govt involvement and more costly in the long run, can we afford their price or would we be better with Guido the Loan Shark?

__________________
01 Ford Excursion Powerstroke
99 E300 Turbodiesel
91 Vette with 383 motor
05 Polaris Sportsman 800 EFI
06 Polaris Sportsman 500 EFI
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Red
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Yellow
04 Tailgator 21 ft Toy Hauler
11 Harley Davidson 883 SuperLow

Tax incentive is essentially the same thing as a tax cut, except it's given for a particular purpose. I thought you were a big supporter of tax cuts. Didn't you say the less money they have to screw around with the better? Now you seem more concerned about them having a deficit and taking the money from somewhere else or borrowing it and you're essentially saying we should give the govt more money so this doesn't happen. I'm not saying that's an unreasonable line of thought, it's just unlike what you've argued for in the past.

__________________
2004 VW Jetta TDI (manual)

Past MB's: '96 E300D, '83 240D, '82 300D, '87 300D, '87 420SEL

So how do you milk the algae?

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Satan creates nothing: he only ruins everything. He does not invent: he tampers. And his followers are no different ~ Archbishop Carlo Maria Vigaṇ

First you get an itty-bitty stool.

B