Surprise! Joe the Plumber is from Alaska! - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

BrierS · #1 10-18-2008, 06:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt SD300

Maybe...Brian Carlton...BC .."Buttcrack" and Joe the plumber should spar?...the best crack wins!!........

Moreover, the off-topic turn of your post offers what useful relevance? Just another example of a Righty diverting from the underlying topic. Some wonder why many of the Independents (such as me) remained undecided for so long...it often is to see what the last chapter of the book says. In this case, if the important issues facing our Great nation are not enough for the candidates to stick to and they instead opt to Robo polling, Palin tactics, etc. we can make a more informed decision.

MS Fowler · #2 10-18-2008, 07:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrierS

Moreover, the off-topic turn of your post offers what useful relevance? Just another example of a Righty diverting from the underlying topic. Some wonder why many of the Independents (such as me) remained undecided for so long...it often is to see what the last chapter of the book says. In this case, if the important issues facing our Great nation are not enough for the candidates to stick to and they instead opt to Robo polling, Palin tactics, etc. we can make a more informed decision.

OK, cut out all the off-topic crap.
The question for me is simple..Do I want increasing socialism?
For me, the answer is an unqualified " NO".

I do not want to live under socialism. The loss of individual rights would crush the spirit.

BrierS · #3 10-18-2008, 07:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MS Fowler

OK, cut out all the off-topic crap.
The question for me is simple..Do I want increasing socialism?
For me, the answer is an unqualified " NO".

I do not want to live under socialism. The loss of individual rights would crush the spirit.

You so eloquently and with such un-equivocation portend to define the overall impact of an Obama presidency as being akin to socialism yet you fail to define what the McCain type policies (if you can figure out what they are) would leave us. More importantly, you seem to forget that a democratic type of government contains certain policies that are parallel to some in socialistic and even communistic forms of government. What about our elderly? Due to their inability to fund fully their final years of existence, should we deport or euthanize them rather than use socialistic-type measures to support them? Some would prefer a pure capitalistic form of government whereby regulations are rare. Let the strong and lucky reap what they can and to hell with the rest (majority in this and most cases). I believe the majority of the voting population has seen what a lack of regulations and their enforcement can do. Why do you not want the candidates to stick to the important global issues facing us? You blast those that post reminders of why actual policies do matter while the political sniping is nothing more than divisive, diversionary tactics. If we are addressing the cost of eggs in a store, we certainly do not need to include the composition of the moon.

MS Fowler · #4 10-18-2008, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrierS

You so eloquently and with such un-equivocation portend to define the overall impact of an Obama presidency as being akin to socialism yet you fail to define what the McCain type policies (if you can figure out what they are) would leave us. More importantly, you seem to forget that a democratic type of government contains certain policies that are parallel to some in socialistic and even communistic forms of government. What about our elderly? Due to their inability to fund fully their final years of existence, should we deport or euthanize them rather than use socialistic-type measures to support them? Some would prefer a pure capitalistic form of government whereby regulations are rare. Let the strong and lucky reap what they can and to hell with the rest (majority in this and most cases). I believe the majority of the voting population has seen what a lack of regulations and their enforcement can do. Why do you not want the candidates to stick to the important global issues facing us? You blast those that post reminders of why actual policies do matter while the political sniping is nothing more than divisive, diversionary tactics. If we are addressing the cost of eggs in a store, we certainly do not need to include the composition of the moon.

Red Herring
I never said anything about a "pure" capitalistic system. At least not at this time.
McCain is certainly further to the left than I am, but he is far to the right of Obama. I want to do anything to halt the slide into socialism.
You cannot have any doubt that Obama is further to the extreme left than anyone one else on the ballot.

Brian Carlton · #5 10-18-2008, 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MS Fowler

I do not want to live under socialism. The loss of individual rights would crush the spirit.

You currently live under a mix of capitalism and socialism. Everything the federal government does and every dollar they spend is socialistic. From managing the wars to providing social security to assisting those that cannot work........it's all socialistic.

Are individual rights currently crushed? Do you still have more opportunity here than just about anywhere else on the planet? We never had a true democracy and we never will..........and there are sound reasons for this.

The pendulum swings toward and away from socialism depending on how the Administration behaves. What's very interesting is that, over the past eight years, you've enjoyed more socialism than at anytime in the history of the country. And, yet, you wail about not wanting "more socialism".

Do you honesty believe that the country was not more socialistic under GWB simply because he pawned the debt off on the next generation? I'm a bit baffled by your responses which resort to the basic instincts of "conservative"..........without any analysis of the facts. We could just read Matt's posts if we wanted that............

azimuth · #6 10-18-2008, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Carlton

You currently live under a mix of capitalism and socialism. Everything the federal government does and every dollar they spend is socialistic. From managing the wars to providing social security to assisting those that cannot work........it's all socialistic.

Are individual rights currently crushed? Do you still have more opportunity here than just about anywhere else on the planet? We never had a true democracy and we never will..........and there are sound reasons for this.

The pendulum swings toward and away from socialism depending on how the Administration behaves. What's very interesting is that, over the past eight years, you've enjoyed more socialism than at anytime in the history of the country. And, yet, you wail about not wanting "more socialism".

Do you honesty believe that the country was not more socialistic under GWB simply because he pawned the debt off on the next generation? I'm a bit baffled by your responses which resort to the basic instincts of "conservative"..........without any analysis of the facts. We could just read Matt's posts if we wanted that............

I think we suffer from divergent definitions...

From Merriam-Webster:

Main Entry: so·cial·ism
Pronunciation: \ˈsō-shə-ˌli-zəm\
Function: noun
Date: 1837
1: any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
2 a: a system of society or group living in which there is no private property b: a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state
3: a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done.

Main Entry: com·mu·nism
Pronunciation: \ˈkäm-yə-ˌni-zəm, -yü-\
Function: noun
Etymology: French communisme, from commun common
Date: 1840
1 a: a theory advocating elimination of private property b: a system in which goods are owned in common and are available to all as needed
2capitalized a: a doctrine based on revolutionary Marxian socialism and Marxism-Leninism that was the official ideology of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics b: a totalitarian system of government in which a single authoritarian party controls state-owned means of production c: a final stage of society in Marxist theory in which the state has withered away and economic goods are distributed equitably d: communist systems collectively

Main Entry: cap·i·tal·ism
Pronunciation: \ˈka-pə-tə-ˌliz-əm, ˈkap-tə-, British also kə-ˈpi-tə-\
Function: noun
Date: 1877
: an economic system characterized by private or corporate ownership of capital goods, by investments that are determined by private decision, and by prices, production, and the distribution of goods that are determined mainly by competition in a free market

I think folks get confused by the term equality. Some think it is a state where in all have equally. Others think it is the state of having equal opportunity to provide for themselves. The spirit and context of the Constitution is that all have equal opportunity. Those who are enticed by a Socialist/Communist ideal, believe that egalitarianism (equal results) is possible while ignoring human nature.

I believe that communal living is possible. I believe it is preferrable. I believe that 'from each according to his means and to each according to his needs' is a noble and edified ideal....if, if, if, if compliance and participation is VOLUNTARY and not coerced.

Anyone who would impose Socialist ideals dismisses the value of one man's established worth and exaggerates the value that another man has established. As human nature would have it, the power that does this destroys the incentive to produce of both the provider and the recipient while authority himself gains power over the dependent, using him to control the provident. Ultimately, the system must collapse or evolve to Communism.

tankdriver · #7 10-18-2008, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by azimuth

Main Entry: so·cial·ism
Pronunciation: \ˈsō-shə-ˌli-zəm\
Function: noun
Date: 1837
1: any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods

Don't have any of that, don't have anyone promising that.

Quote:

2 a: a system of society or group living in which there is no private property b: a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state

Have a little bit of that, thanks to Republican loosening of the eminent domain laws. No candidate is promoting that this time around though. None promoting government run production of goods either.

Quote:

3: a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done.

Damn. Almost made it. Unfortunately, ever since the days of slavery we've had unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done. My brother's former colleagues got paid more than I did at my last job, and they spent half their day surfing the net. Friggin' socialist private enterprise.

Botnst · #8 10-18-2008, 07:16 PM

Ever since the evolution of life on Earth there has been unequal distribution of resources. That's life.

B

tankdriver · #9 10-18-2008, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

Ever since the evolution of life on Earth there has been unequal distribution of resources. That's life.

B

So what you're saying is that the natural order of things is socialism. I quoted it, so you can't take it back.

732002 · #10 10-18-2008, 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

Ever since the evolution of life on Earth there has been unequal distribution of resources. That's life.

B

True: if Obama is the next president there will still be rich and poor.
The difference will only be slightly smaller.

Joe the plumber is a strategy to get average Joe to think that Obama
will raise his taxes. Palin/McCain can't say that the Obama tax plan
will raise middle class taxes and Joe the plumber is a way to get around
that.

Joe the lawyer, cardiologist.... might get a tax increase but that does
not work politically.

Brian Carlton · #11 10-18-2008, 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrierS

Moreover, the off-topic turn of your post offers what useful relevance? Just another example of a Righty diverting from the underlying topic. Some wonder why many of the Independents (such as me) remained undecided for so long...it often is to see what the last chapter of the book says. In this case, if the important issues facing our Great nation are not enough for the candidates to stick to and they instead opt to Robo polling, Palin tactics, etc. we can make a more informed decision.

Steve.........a person to ignore.

In fact, he's now on a "lunch break" that's going to last a couple of months.

mwood · #12 10-19-2008, 12:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrierS

Moreover, the off-topic turn of your post offers what useful relevance? Just another example of a Righty diverting from the underlying topic. Some wonder why many of the Independents (such as me) remained undecided for so long...it often is to see what the last chapter of the book says. In this case, if the important issues facing our Great nation are not enough for the candidates to stick to and they instead opt to Robo polling, Palin tactics, etc. we can make a more informed decision.

You sound really undecided