Fair enough. What weapons do you think I can own short of a cruise missile that will outgun a typical police force on a one to one basis? My AK-47? My 12 gauge? Unless you are talking DU rounds, it is hard to imagine many weapons that are going to outgun the local police force seeing as how they have fully automatic assault rifles, shotguns, tear gas, etc, etc.

In fact, the M16 Assault rifle, IIRC doesn't even fire fully auto anymore. They have a 3 round burst. Why? Probably because full auto does little

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Like I said, I'm hardly the gun expert. Interpret the statement as you see fit.

What did those two clowns have that held off an entire police force for nearly one hour? Their firepower was amazing..........the police were outgunned until the full swat team arrived.

Well, you were the one saying we should allow hunting and sporting guns but ban assault rifles. I'm trying to see if it is the nice sound bite of "assault rifle" that you are against or whether you have a legit beef with it. You talked of AP rounds. I am trying to see why you are against them. Are they a huge problem?

That is kinda vague.

Not even sure what story you are talking about.

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According to the anti-gun lobby there is no difference. Both are gas operated semi-automatic rifles. I believe that back during the Clinton ban a distinction was made by 'aggressive' Vs 'non-aggressive' stocks ( in other words a pistol grip was too aggressive, but a regular stock was not -- AK-47 banned SKS OK)

The new definition would be that ANY semi-auto is not good.

Can you tell me the difference between AP and non AP ammo? Is a 30-06 or .308 armor piercing? Against a kevlar vest? You bet. Is there a big difference between 7.62x54 and .35 Remmington? Aren't both copper jacketed high power rifle ammo?

Will we have to ban all metal jacketed ammo? Maybe they should ban everything except black powder muzzle loaders. Maybe even go back to flintlocks

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I'm not a ballistics expert either. What you are saying is "I am against assault rifles". Fair enough. I'm just trying to see what it is that the assault rifle has that you are against. To me, a semi auto rifle is a semi auto rifle. Like I said, the assault rifle has the ability to stick a bayonet in it. Maybe a larger magazine but that is about it. I want to know what you think I can achieve with an assault rifle that I cannot achieve with a hunting rifle.

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I think that one of the criteria was also the ability to stick a bayonet in the rifle end. Maybe they thought the drive by stabbings would get out of hand but when I am faced with a rifle, I think the bayonet is a small concern. I didn't understand what the stock difference would do either.

I think you cannot obtain black powder anymores unless you have a special license. Only pyrodex.

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Bingo. An individual or a few of them against an entire govt is not what the 2nd is about. A population properly armed will not have to put down govt. Tyranny and despotism will never even germinate if the ability to destroy it is present. I dare say, we might not have seen WWI or WWII if righteous individuals properly armed, unified and organized had been there to prevent govt run amok. How many hundreds of thousands-millions of lives could have been saved by a nation of well armed yet good natured people?...

To the Obama gun ban movement, his website had a list of measures to ban firearms and confiscatorily tax ammunition. Among them was to reinstate the Clinton gun ban as well as a further move to stop the production of semi automatic arms. There are more and they are sweeping. I'd post a link, to his website, but the information has been taken down. I doubt that means they intend to scrap the effort.

by the way, it's not illegal to yell 'FIRE!' in a crowded theater....if there is indeed a fire. In fact, it is an heroic thing to do.

History has an interesting effect on rhetoric. The US Civil War was one of the bloodiest in the battles between brothers. Would gun ownership have saved the First Nation tribes against "manifest destiny", the Hawaiian monarchy against the US Marines or the Japanese Americans against their imprisonment?

Have to wonder.

That is a good example; if you are citing the Bank of America robbery the offesne was already illegal weapons and body armor if they did not have the armor the stand off would have ended quickly so despite the armor piercing bullets body armor was the equalizer to the superior force.

Now if you want to address the hold off a small police force issue certain people could easily hold off an un-entrenched force until superior firepower arrives, superior being grenades.

It took an exotic action to take the Branch Dividians out.

As a rule, any opponent falls to his enemy because of superior weaponry and organization. But that is not the idea I'm asserting. It is that the civil war might well have been avoided, the indiginous tribes may have endured and the Japanese Americans may never have been abused, had their opponents understood that the cost of their abuse would be too high.

That was not an "exotic action" by the definition of the term on here today. I take Lim to mean an action by the government that is outside the rule of law.

The government came to arrest a specific individual. He resisted arrest. It went downhill from there..........hardly exotic.

I used "assault rifle" as an example. If it's a simple semi-auto rifle, I agree with you.

You tell me..........what can an assault rifle do that a hunting rifle cannot?

Questioning me about weapons isn't going to get you anywhere, because, self-admittedly, I'm no expert on them.