no, dont be ridiculous. I was just pointing out that the Tata, recently discussed here, would be a vehicle that would fit the requirements for the new fuel standards. BTW, there is nothing wrong with small cheap cars; part of the problem now is that the big three sold Amrica on the idea of bigger is better. When I was a kid, trucks were not the norm, people might hav ea truck for work, but most folks drove sedans or wagons. Now, the propensity is towards big truck like SUVs or 4 door trucks. Detroit made more profit on those, and I am sure would love to keep selling them.

here are some small, cheap cars that are way cool...

1. VW Beetle
2. VW Rabbit
3. Citroen DCV
4. Suzuki Metro
5. VW Polo
6. Tata Nano
7. Morris Minor
8. Mini Cooper (original)
9. MG & Triumphs of all sorts
10. Renault Le Car

wow, look, small cheap cars that I like and not one of them is from Detroit! I guess you are right, Detroit has me just where they want me....

BTW, Kudos on having a Land Cruiser, certainly a stick in the eye to fuel economy stds; I know, I have a 1968 FJ55

BTW, A Land Rover Discovery with the 3.0 TDI will get 30 plus MPG AND is very crash safe...

And would cost approximately how much? Therein lies the problem...

new Discos are in the 40s and 50s. However, Rover never certified the diesel engine for the NA market and therein lies the rub; lots of cool cars out there that would meet the standards now, except the US crash stds and engine certification costs are prohibitive. I would give up some of our silly crash stds for higher mpg and lower vehicle cost....

Jeezus ain't that the truth... I'm toying with a 617 swap......The diesel that Toyota developed for the FJ doesn't seem worth bothering with. Currently, the big problem is the vehicle lives in CO, and I live in CT.

__________________
On some nights I still believe that a car with the fuel gauge on empty can run about fifty more miles if you have the right music very loud on the radio. - HST

1983 300SD - 305000
1984 Toyota Landcruiser - 190000
1994 GMC Jimmy - 203000

https://media.giphy.com/media/X3nnss8PAj5aU/giphy.gif

617? I have heard of the 4B swaps, etc. SOR sells 'half cut" diesel units to do a swap, basically front half of a foreign market Cruiser with an oil burner. It aint cheap though IH8Mud has a lot of conversion info and threads. Sounds like a road trip is in order to get your rig. You can always stop for a beer break in OKC; I'll buy.

I have not heard good things about the 4B regarding their power and economy. They were available for Canadian cruisers apparently. Seeing as how I am enjoying the 617 in my SD, thought it might be a good candidate for the Land Cruiser as well, although not as easy as a dropping in a 4B. Fortunately, I know a great fab welder who is also a gear head. Probably never be anything more than an idea, but a guys gotta dream.

My Land Cruiser lives in CO at my cabin. I fly out about 5 times a year for business purposes, and it is my driver when I am there. However, I have been toying with the idea of driving out in the SD later this summer, depending on price of airfare and time constrictions, which means OKC is only a little further drop to the south.

__________________
On some nights I still believe that a car with the fuel gauge on empty can run about fifty more miles if you have the right music very loud on the radio. - HST

1983 300SD - 305000
1984 Toyota Landcruiser - 190000
1994 GMC Jimmy - 203000

https://media.giphy.com/media/X3nnss8PAj5aU/giphy.gif

Well, the Detroit entry would be the Ford Focus. My kid has one and I am surprised what a good car it has turned out to be, it also has a nice roomy interior for a small car. IIRC, it is now one of the top selling cars in the world. But otherwise, the stuff from Detriot in this market has been crap. I drive a lot of rental cars in my job, and I have found the Chevy and Chrysler products in the small car sector complete over-priced crap. The Dodge job was the worst, not only was it full of rattles and a rough ride, it was lousy on gas to boot, and it ended up breaking down on me with only a few thousand miles on the clock, the damned floor shift would simply not come out of park. Making small cars that chug gas and break down, man, that is so emblematic of what is wrong with America, from the 60's Corvairs to the 21st Century Colts, dude, it is our history and tradition to make the worst practical cars ever made, it is the American Way.

I do think one brand you neglected in your list is the Hyundai low end offerings, one is the Elanta, I forget what the even smaller one is, one runs 9k and the other 10k - Hyundai has done a great deal to improve quality from the bad old days, and it's 10yr/100,000 mile warranty, well, you can't beat that deal on a cheap car. I am seriously considering buying one, it will be either that or the Kia Spectra.

That's one of the reasons I like the Ford Focus, it is one of the few small inexpensive cars with both front and side air bags, usually you only find that level of safety equipment in the more expensive cars.

Look at resale history before you buy - heavy depreciation is an oft overlooked budget killer. I don't think that resale is a Kia strength. I would look at a Honda Fit first.

must be a lot of manager types on this forum...... In engineering there is the basic 3, low cost, speed to market, and quality. generally only 2 are possible and you have to compromise on the third. Managers NEVER accept this. NEVER. and this issue is much the same. the law asks for better economy on average. this is the key. they will need to do this across the board on many many models or make 2 or three that get 60MPG to carry the others. I didnt read the entire thing but Im guessing there will be an exemption for over 6000lbs, so the Hummers will be left out of the ave calcs. so the 3 we have are economy,safety and cost. something is going to suffer, it remains to be seen what we will buy. Detroit builds what we buy, if you want to blame anyone for their troubles its us the buyers who voted for what they should make with our dollars. I guess its shame on them for not seeing the fuel shortage coming and the instant fickle change to a desire for smaller cars the majority of people wouldnt buy 5 years ago.

__________________

1982 300CD Turbo (Otis, "ups & downs") parts for sale
2003 TJ with Hemi (to go anywhere, quickly) sold
2001 Excursion Powerstroke (to go dependably)
1970 Mustang 428SCJ (to go fast)
1962 Corvette LS1 (to go in style)
2001 Schwinn Grape Krate 10spd (if all else fails)

There is nothing that could be considered a Kia "strength".

- Peter.

__________________
2021 Chevrolet Spark
Formerly...
2000 GMC Sonoma
1981 240D 4spd stick. 347000 miles. Deceased Feb 14 2021
2002 Kia Rio. Worst crap on four wheels
1981 240D 4spd stick. 389000 miles.
1984 123 200
1979 116 280S
1972 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
1971 108 280S

7. Morris Minor
8. Mini Cooper (original)

My mother had #8 then #7, 1962 in fact when I was growing up. I spent many years riding to and from school in a Morris Minor. It was cheap but it was not cool. Little more removed from a horseless carriage with an small noisy gutless motor. It was "cool" the way something in a museum is cool. It was fairly reliable but beyond that it has nothing to commend it.

- Peter.

__________________
2021 Chevrolet Spark
Formerly...
2000 GMC Sonoma
1981 240D 4spd stick. 347000 miles. Deceased Feb 14 2021
2002 Kia Rio. Worst crap on four wheels
1981 240D 4spd stick. 389000 miles.
1984 123 200
1979 116 280S
1972 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
1971 108 280S

Blaming the consumer for what Detroit has been churning out is a bit over simplistic. These are companies that will try to force whatever they build down people's throats. If the car doesn't sell, Detroit comes up with new marketing, not new designs. I welcome the paring down of Detroit automakers, as it might result in companies that are responsive to the desires of their customers, unlike Detroit of the recent past. Detroit sat on their collective arses while their market share dwindled year after year, sucked up by Japanese and Korean car manufacturers who were making the more efficient and reliable cars desired by the consumer. Place the blame where it belongs, at the top of the steaming pile that is the US auto maker.

__________________
On some nights I still believe that a car with the fuel gauge on empty can run about fifty more miles if you have the right music very loud on the radio. - HST

1983 300SD - 305000
1984 Toyota Landcruiser - 190000
1994 GMC Jimmy - 203000

https://media.giphy.com/media/X3nnss8PAj5aU/giphy.gif

so they put a gun to millions of SUV buyers heads? someone is over simplifying....... Toyota, Nissan and Honda were all making their cars incramentally bigger and they also all make big SUV's and trucks if you hadnt noticed. the trend we have now goes against big cars, but only started a year or at most 2 ago. no business so large can adapt to such a reversal.

__________________

1982 300CD Turbo (Otis, "ups & downs") parts for sale
2003 TJ with Hemi (to go anywhere, quickly) sold
2001 Excursion Powerstroke (to go dependably)
1970 Mustang 428SCJ (to go fast)
1962 Corvette LS1 (to go in style)
2001 Schwinn Grape Krate 10spd (if all else fails)