I never questioned the market for large vehicles and SUV's, but Detroit did not make any real attempt to cater to the fuel efficient market either. They thought they could just go on for ever selling the big overpriced vehicles with the biggest profit margin, while neglecting the more efficient vehicles with the smaller margin. Look where it got them. #1 car maker in the world - Toyota

However, with the opinion that it is all the consumers fault, you must be pretty happy that we the consumer are making up for our failings by bailing out GM....

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On some nights I still believe that a car with the fuel gauge on empty can run about fifty more miles if you have the right music very loud on the radio. - HST

1983 300SD - 305000
1984 Toyota Landcruiser - 190000
1994 GMC Jimmy - 203000

https://media.giphy.com/media/X3nnss8PAj5aU/giphy.gif

I never said it was good business, just that you cant blame it all on them, they make what sells. and given another 5 years of big car boom Toy Hon and Nissan would be in the same boat. they made up market share by building bigger cars. just look at the progression in size. The only thing I would bail out is the pension funds, the makers are getting the the down side of any business and thats the way business works. if they have capital on hand to ride out the storm, they would not be in such bad shape. The fuel efficient market would not sell until a few years ago, it silly to say they didnt work on it. the big three had production battery powered cars in the 80's that were sold on loan to cities. the time for efficiency came as a sudden shift in focus, not a natural progression. that time is measures not in "nice to have" but what would actually sell

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1982 300CD Turbo (Otis, "ups & downs") parts for sale
2003 TJ with Hemi (to go anywhere, quickly) sold
2001 Excursion Powerstroke (to go dependably)
1970 Mustang 428SCJ (to go fast)
1962 Corvette LS1 (to go in style)
2001 Schwinn Grape Krate 10spd (if all else fails)

Actually I read that VW is currently the #1 automaker when it comes to sales, for 2 reasons: consumer incentives in Europe to buy new cars where VW has been #1 for a long time, and VW's large market share in Brazil and I believe also China where demand is still growing and where Toyota hasn't penetrated the market as much. Where Toyota is currently dominant (Japan, US) is where demand has largely collapsed, hence their sales are like 40% down but that's still better than the Big 3.

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2004 VW Jetta TDI (manual)

Past MB's: '96 E300D, '83 240D, '82 300D, '87 300D, '87 420SEL

To get your curb weight, take the gross weight and subtract the load capacity. Your '95 E300D is about 3600 lbs which is about what my '96 weighs as well.

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2004 VW Jetta TDI (manual)

Past MB's: '96 E300D, '83 240D, '82 300D, '87 300D, '87 420SEL

They sell what they make. Once in a while, and I think SUVs are a great example of this, the demand is created by the supplier. If the marketing campaign for SUVs hadn't succeeded in deriding the minivan, I wonder how many there'd be on the road.

You mention the import SUVs. Can you describe them more accurately than minivans with a hood? I can't.

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1984 300TD

I make the jaunt between Dallas and Houston all the time, which puts 700 miles a week on the car, it won't be worth **** when I'm done with it no matter what the brand, last cheapo was a Mazda, gave it to the kid with 350,000 miles on it.

You got 350,000 miles out of a Mazda?! Which year/model?

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Whoever said there's nothing more expensive than a cheap Mercedes never had a cheap Jaguar.

83 300D Turbo with manual conversion, early W126 vented front rotors and H4 headlights 401,xxx miles
08 Suzuki GSX-R600 M4 Slip-on 26,xxx miles
88 Jaguar XJS V12 94,xxx miles. Work in progress.
99 Mazda Miata 183,xxx miles.

all three have full size pickups and versions of SUVs from those full size platforms. Honda even copied the GM Avelanche so closely I thought it was just a GM with different side plastic. Toyota even did a respin the land rover. the examples are there at every light if youre looking

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1982 300CD Turbo (Otis, "ups & downs") parts for sale
2003 TJ with Hemi (to go anywhere, quickly) sold
2001 Excursion Powerstroke (to go dependably)
1970 Mustang 428SCJ (to go fast)
1962 Corvette LS1 (to go in style)
2001 Schwinn Grape Krate 10spd (if all else fails)

And that is why Chrysler is bankrupt and GM will be following them in a few weeks.

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2016 Corvette Stingray 2LT
1969 280SE
2023 Ram 1500
2007 Tiara 3200

* When it is actually operational.

** No data available, because no actual crashes have ever been seen, with the vehicles not operational/on a lift.

Seriously, a few people at work have had these and describe them with every other word starting with F. And the dealer in town has closed.

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86 560SL
With homebrew first gear start!
85 380SL
Daily Driver Project

http://juliepalooza.8m.com/sl/mercedes.htm

You lost me. Examples of what?

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1984 300TD

those stated above are not minivans with hoods. they are indeed full size

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1982 300CD Turbo (Otis, "ups & downs") parts for sale
2003 TJ with Hemi (to go anywhere, quickly) sold
2001 Excursion Powerstroke (to go dependably)
1970 Mustang 428SCJ (to go fast)
1962 Corvette LS1 (to go in style)
2001 Schwinn Grape Krate 10spd (if all else fails)

Just speaking to deriding a vehicle type, my mother's '06 Tahoe gets better city and highway mileage than my wife's current '03 Honda Odyssey and her previous '99 Grand Caravan. The Tahoe has more power, carries the same amount of people, can tow almost twice as much weight and do it regularly, all while getting better mileage. Yet my wife wouldn't dare drive a newer Tahoe (or Suburban which actually gets about the same as our minivans) because of the stigma attached.

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1980 300TD-China Blue/Blue MBTex-2nd Owner, 107K (Alt Blau) OBK #15
'06 Chevy Tahoe Z71 (for the wife & 4 kids, current mule) '03 Honda Odyssey (son #1's ride, reluctantly) '99 GMC Suburban (255K+ miles, semi-retired mule) 21' SeaRay Seville (summer escape pod)

Since an Odyssey is on our "maybe some day" list, would you please relate here what sort of fuel economy numbers they are observing? Similar driving styles? Typical load?

I'd also be curious to know if a newer Odyssey (with cylinder deactivation) would fare better under the same driving conditions, but I can't expect you to buy one just to satisfy my curiosity.

As an aside, I'm curious if the recent announcements will have any influence on if/when Honda decides to allow us poor miserable U.S.A.-ians to buy a diesel Odyssey (or Accord, or Civic). I'm not necessarily a Honda fanboy, but I'd like to see some more choices in the market.

I've been waiting for a diesel Odyssey for quite awile. I've heard it's coming every year for 5-6 years now. It'd be interesting to see if VW brings a Routan TDI here since they're already into the market with a diesel.

The '03 Ody has averaged 14.5/17.5 (with an occasional 15/18) for the 4 years we've had it, which was about what the Grand Caravan got. While it doesn't get a lot of stop and go driving, there are a lot of short trips around town dropping kids off/picking kids up. The highway mileage has been disappointing, I thought the Ody would get us to the 20 mark. I do whatever the bulk of the traffic is doing, so 65-70. Typical load would be the wife and 4 kids and their accompanying "stuff", be it 'ball equipment or backpacks. The highway driving would typically be the same but throw my 280 lbs. into the equation.

My mother's Tahoe does less around town and more highway (since it's actually my father's workhorse and tow vehicle) and she's beat both of our numbers easily by a MPG when not towing. Around town it'd be primarily her, highway would be she and my father and all of the stuff to or from the boat. Regular loads are probably equal weightwise, but the Tahoe does weigh a fair amount more and has 4WD. Plus it routinely tows their 6,000 lb. GVW travel trailer. The Ody would shred the tranny towing a pop-up with any regularity or distance.

My father is too cheap to buy my mother a smaller car for daily use (Other than his Corvette he sees vehicles strictly as utilitarian-he has a PT Cruiser for running around in and despite the reputation and derision, has been a decent little car with a good amount of room for its size) which is why she's "stuck" with the Tahoe.

I'll see if I can get some numbers from my brother on his wife's '08 Ody.

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1980 300TD-China Blue/Blue MBTex-2nd Owner, 107K (Alt Blau) OBK #15
'06 Chevy Tahoe Z71 (for the wife & 4 kids, current mule) '03 Honda Odyssey (son #1's ride, reluctantly) '99 GMC Suburban (255K+ miles, semi-retired mule) 21' SeaRay Seville (summer escape pod)