Wrong.

The reason things are so out of control is because government and other third party payers have distorted the "free market" and removed much of the "free market" that would bring down cost and improve quality.

Waking up without a kidney would fall into the category of fraud and/or deprivation of property, and it would be a proper role of government to deal with such matters.

Capitalism and deregulation did NOT get us into this mess; rather it was failure of our government to do its proper job and deal with the fraud perpetrated by certain members of Wall $treet with their Ponzi schemes, derivatives, imaginary money, and so on. What these people did was fraud, pure and simple, yet Uncle Sam has done little to bring them to justice. Unfortunately, this fraud resulted in the common folk losing jobs, houses, etc.

The free market WILL fix things, but it is merciless in doing so. That is where private charity enters the picture. Taking my hard earned money and giving it out under penalty of law is not compassion; it is robbery, no matter how noble the goal. Paying taxes to support the PROPER functions of government is not a problem with me..


Right on. Couldn't have said it any better.

__________________
Erich Loepke
2010 Ford Focus
Currently Benz-less

All computer geeks that I know can spell (and I know a lot because I am one). Its a vaild point.

BING BING BING... He gets it! I agree 100%

__________________
"I have no convictions ... I blow with the wind, and the prevailing wind happens to be from Vichy"

Current
Monika '74 450 SL
BrownHilda '79 280SL
FoxyCleopatra '99 Chevy Suburban
Scarlett 2014 Jeep Cherokee
Krystal 2004 Volvo S60
Gone
'74 Jeep CJ5
'97 Jeep ZJ Laredo
Rudolf ‘86 300SDL
Bruno '81 300SD
Fritzi '84 BMW
'92 Subaru
'96 Impala SS
'71 Buick GS conv
'67 GTO conv
'63 Corvair conv
'57 Nomad

I don't understand this blind faith in the god of free market. The market doesn't fix things. It it just a means of profit pursuit. The Wall streeters you rant about were free to operate the way they did, so they did it. That's free market. You can call it fraud, but the derivative swap et al. was completely legal and they were free to do it.

__________________
1984 300TD

Let's focus on the free market option. Markets work because there are sellers and buyers. There's a free market for Rolls Royce's. But few people can afford them. Not many people think there is an injustice or a serious problem in people lacking the ability to buy a Rolls Royce. However, the cost of health care insurance is pushing it into the Rolls Royce realm with lots of people being unable to afford health insurance.
So, the free market is functioning. There is health insurance, it is being bought and sold but not to everyone. Is there a problem with this fact? I believe there is. We need people to work at relatively unskilled jobs at low wages. All of us use the labor of these people everyday in our lives. Is it fair that they lack the ability to see a doctor when they are sick, when wealthier people can easily do so? Since many medical conditions are issues of life and death, I think that since we know that there are systems available which are effective and efficient in providing health care to everyone, we should utilize them.
Of course there are other public health reasons why we want to make medical care available to everyone, especially in cases of infectious diseases, but for me the basic issue is whether a society which allows people to suffer or die as a result of treatable disease is a good one.

__________________
1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13

In a free market system when you make is mistake you burn. That doesn't seem to happen any more.

I realize that this sometimes this means we ALL have to burn, we have been having market cycles (including recessions and depressions) for as long as there have been markets. These cycles are an essential part of the process, they serve to flush nonsense out of the system.

What we are doing today reminds me of the US Forrest service policies regarding forest fires in the 30's and 40's. At that time the "sunshine and lollypops for everybody all the time at any cost" school of thought prevailed and all forest fires were extinguished at as soon as they were found. Only after decades of this policy did the "experts" realize that forest fires were a natural part of the environment and they actually serve a beneficial function.

Same deal with recessions and even depressions.

You may not like it but its hard to argue that our free-market system hasn't been successful. We've built a standard of living that is the envy of most of the rest of the world.

__________________
98 Dodge-Cummins pickup (137K)
13 GLK250 (157k)
06 E320CDI (341K)
16 C300 (89K)
82 300GD Gelaendewagen (54K)

So your argument is that letting poor people die of curable diseases is like a forest fire, flushing nonsense out of the system.

__________________
1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13

Of course not, I was making an argument that to incur 20-30 trillion dollars in debt to try to avoid a recession or depression might not be the best course of action.

That's quite an interpretation on your part, how did you deduce that was my opinion on the subject?

__________________
98 Dodge-Cummins pickup (137K)
13 GLK250 (157k)
06 E320CDI (341K)
16 C300 (89K)
82 300GD Gelaendewagen (54K)

I took your argument to be that a free market health insurance system was to be preferred over other options, like the public health care option being proposed. Since many people in the current free market system cannot afford health insurance, I inferred that you were commending this feature of a free market health insurance system.

__________________
1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13

Thanks for the explanation, I guess I wasn't clear enough.

I actually don't have a problem with the concept of the 'public option' but I have concerns that once implemented the government will not operate under the same rules that private insurers have to operate under.

For example I can see regulatory practices and enforcement favoring the government option over the private concerns. Isn't it a conflict of interest to have the government being the person making the rules, monitoring the game and handing out punishments for infractions while they have a player on the field?

I'm also very concerned about the public option and its cost - the government can, and does, routinely run huge deficits and they can print and borrow money at will to cover shortfalls. For all their faults private companies can't use this tactic to isolate themselves from reality.

I do believe that everyone in the country should have access to basic health care services.

__________________
98 Dodge-Cummins pickup (137K)
13 GLK250 (157k)
06 E320CDI (341K)
16 C300 (89K)
82 300GD Gelaendewagen (54K)

Not necessarily. Regardless of system, it is often that the cause of something does not suffer the consequence. The financial collapse took out much collateral damage.

Our free-market system isn't free. It is constrained. A government option to health care is just another player in the market.

__________________
1984 300TD

No, what the Wall Streeters did was fraud. Our government abdicated its responsibility for reigning in this kind of abuse. This is a legitimate form of government control; protecting its citizens from activities that deprive them of their money unjustly. They were only free to engage in their fraud because government did NOT do what it should have. Instead, our government tries to do all sorts of things it is not meant for, like providing services for people that should be provided for privately, such as health care.

The free market system is the only thing that works with human nature. Every other system tries to ignore or subvert it in some way. That will never happen, ever.

It's being pushed there because so many free market mechanisms that would bring down cost and bring up quality have been removed from the system due to government programs like Medicare/Medicaid, as well as the market distortions introduced by widespread use of health insurance to cover conditions that should be taken care of by the local doctor (I'm talking about people going to the ER for a cold because they have an insurance card). That's kind of like using a comprehensive auto policy to cover every parking lot scratch and wondering why your premiums increase or you are eventually dropped completely.

__________________
Erich Loepke
2010 Ford Focus
Currently Benz-less

First of all, government control is constraining free trade, which I agree it should. Second, the laws and regulations against the kind of behavior Wall Strs. engaged in were gone, so they were free to act in the market in the manner they did.

What free market mechanisms that bring down cost and increase quality are being stopped by Medicare/Medicaid?
Regarding going to the emergency room for colds, it is those without insurance who do that. Those without insurance must be treated by the ER, but local doctors can turn them away. Those who have insurance make doctor's appointments rather than wait 11 hrs in the ER.

__________________
1984 300TD

Exactly right. He wants less regulation and more freedom in the market, and then he complains the govt didn't do enough to stop bad practices. Talk about being conflicted.

And on the ER thing, that's another big problem with our system. Uninsured people are denied basic preventive care, their condition deteriorates, and then they show up at an ER which has to treat them and it costs all of us more money. Or they just go to the ER with the sniffles because they don't have access to basic care, and again it costs us more money than if they had access to basic care.

__________________
2004 VW Jetta TDI (manual)

Past MB's: '96 E300D, '83 240D, '82 300D, '87 300D, '87 420SEL

You claim that capitalism and deregulation did not get us into this mess.

Were derivatives developed by the free market and implemented by those who determined they could profit from it?

Were loans made to people without credit and without the capability to pay because the government backed the loan without oversight?


It was precisely the "free market" with the blind eye of the government that put us where we are today. The free market saw the opportunity for short term profit and failed to heed the inevitable rises and fall of the real estate market.

If you with to conclude that Bernie Madoff caused the meltdown, well, good luck with that position.