I'm still alive. Know any dead horses because there are more than a few horse people that are using city water and their horses have not died yet.

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Are you saying that it can be accomplished by a couple million dollars? If not who would go about doing such a thing? Some pioneer with tons of money AND the stones to risk it all? I don't think even Bill Gates could afford such a thing if he liquidated everything he owned. Maybe he can but I doubt it.

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01 Ford Excursion Powerstroke
99 E300 Turbodiesel
91 Vette with 383 motor
05 Polaris Sportsman 800 EFI
06 Polaris Sportsman 500 EFI
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Red
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Yellow
04 Tailgator 21 ft Toy Hauler
11 Harley Davidson 883 SuperLow

start adding up what we've spent on interstate highways and airports. just Denver alone dropped a load of cash on it's airport. then add up the cost of operating a car, i.e. insurance, gasoline, tires, maintenance and don't forget; the cost of ACCIDENTS caused by incompetent moronic drivers. but, for the most part the airlines are currently being propped up by federal dollars. then there is the cost of additional security measures required for airports which appears to be EXPANDING to the tune of zillions$$$$$. I predict the train idea will never take off here due to various economic reasons. too much infrastructure built around cars and airplanes. so,,I guess I'll get to choke on the other guys' exhaust while having a moron tail gate me from behind. great.

My take on him is this. Aklim supports what is good for Aklim. From looking at his posts it does not seem that the idea of self sacrifice come into play. Others see a different picture. While I am not interested in doing something that is against my self interests as a rule, I do understand that sometime there may be a greater good that may result in that action. The ultimate example of that would be the soldier falling on the grenade to save those around him (the needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few (one)).

I look at public transportation and see a benefit for many and an inconvenience for few. Top Gear has done several races between public transport and private. The end result always seems to be the same. Public trans wins (even if it looses). There was the one that they went from England to somewhere in N. Europe. Jeremy had to drive non-stop for close to 24 hours and won. Yet he was exhausted and readily admitted that public trans won because they were relaxed and he was miserable.

I am a car guy as much as anyone else here and I would hate to give up my 16v. Having said that, I would definitely not mind parking it for most of the week in exchange for being able to hop on a tube and be at work with out having to put up with traffic and all the expenses that come with private transport.

Then there is the fact that just because I can afford the luxury of a car does not mean that everyone else is so fortunate.

One can also look at cities that do have advanced public transport. Look at NYC, DC, Seattle, SFO, London, Paris, Berlin just to name a few. When I visited those places I had no need for a car and never missed it. I could get anywhere I wanted, with very little muss or fuss. At worst it required a little walking.

I am willing to sacrifice things to make it better for all. Some are not willing to do so. I think so long as the former out number the latter, we will be OK. Right now I think its the other way around which is why I agree with other posters here that the US is on the decline. Soon, we will pass into the history books as other 'great' empires have.

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2014 C250 21,XXX my new DD ** 2013 GLK 350 18,000 Wife's new DD**

- With out god, life is everything.
- God is an ever receding pocket of scientific ignorance that's getting smaller and smaller as time moves on..." Neil DeGrasse Tyson
- You can pray for me, I'll think for you.
- When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.

I think that's an unreasonable comparison. Germany has MUCH less area to cover, and owning and operating a car there is significantly more expensive than it is here. Thus, DB makes sense and is widely used. Even so, two one-way tickets from Garmisch to Munich (about a 1.5 hour trip on the regional train) cost us about $75. How many Americans would be willing to leave their cars at home and shell out that kind of cash to make a trip that would take less time to make by car? Until gas costs what it does in Europe, driver's education becomes a significant expense, more thorough vehicle maintenance becomes required via inspections, etc, etc, etc... I just don't see much incentive to travel by rail here in the US. We are too spoiled, for starters, by the low costs of vehicle ownership, and too geographically spread out for rail to be much of an effective alternative.

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1992 300D 2.5T
1980 Euro 300D (sadly, sold)
1998 Jetta TDI, 132K "Rudy"
1974 Triumph TR6
1999 Saab 9-5 wagon (wife's)

Aklim, I am astounded by that response. sure, you may still be breathing, but I challenge you to check into the issue of water quality supplied by municipal water supplies. very minute traces of medical waste and nuclear waste makes it way slowly ever slowly down to the water treatment plant. not much when the waste hits the drain, but by the time it hits the treatment plant it is something to be reckoned with. there huge vats are opened up to the sunlight and slowly stirred trying to allow the sun to cook the crap out. half the workers at the treatment plant are dead by age 50 from some type of cancer. yeah, it's really really good for you. check out the movie "Civil Action" with John Travolta for more updates on the water saga. here, allow me to pour you a glass of water.....drink up....ummmmmm good!!!

Yes right now it is more expensive to own a car there. Do you not believe that the US will catch up? The time to start investing in the infrastructure is now, not when we need it. As for the size issue, look at the size of some of the US cities that have public transport. Look at NYC. It is far more expensive to own a car there than in most of the rest of the US. Parking spots in NYC cost more than I paid for my house here in TX. The congestion makes most people take the subway or the trains. Fortunately they had a good infrastructure to start out with and kept it.

As with most things, I think we either start to pay a little now or a whole lot more later. Building a public transport system when you are desperate for on will cost substantially more than starting to build it now when we just needed it. Granted they will not be efficient at first but that will come as they get larger and people start adapting to them.

__________________
Sent from an agnostic abacus

2014 C250 21,XXX my new DD ** 2013 GLK 350 18,000 Wife's new DD**

- With out god, life is everything.
- God is an ever receding pocket of scientific ignorance that's getting smaller and smaller as time moves on..." Neil DeGrasse Tyson
- You can pray for me, I'll think for you.
- When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.

You raise an important point about infrastructure costs of roads. Keep in mind that that infrastructure EXISTS NOW, though. I would wager that maintaining those roads (which will still be necessary with or w/o rail service) would cost significantly less than installing rail to service the nation.

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1992 300D 2.5T
1980 Euro 300D (sadly, sold)
1998 Jetta TDI, 132K "Rudy"
1974 Triumph TR6
1999 Saab 9-5 wagon (wife's)

I can appreciate your position, and understand it well. I just don't think it will pay off here in the US, particularly when we've already taken on a massive debt, to shell out the massive amount of money to get the ball rolling. The term "boondoggle" comes to mind. I see very little return on investment, more probability of a further-devalued dollar, and a system that will do little (if anything), for folks like me in small towns in America.

This might be the future of transportation, but now's not the right time.

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1992 300D 2.5T
1980 Euro 300D (sadly, sold)
1998 Jetta TDI, 132K "Rudy"
1974 Triumph TR6
1999 Saab 9-5 wagon (wife's)

to really cost it out, we would need to place the figures on a spread sheet. i.e. how many cars are currently on the roads, cost to insure each car, cost of road repairs, air quality issues from carbon monoxide, etc. etc.

I always like to look at who would be the winners and who would be the losers. for instance, if more people parked their car and took the train who would lose? perhaps the airlines, road building companies, auto repair shops and auto insurers might lose out. on the other hand, a train might transport more people in a cleaner and safer environment. magnets don't produce much in the way of carbon monixide and train traffic could be more easily controlled, i.e. less accidents. but, change is very difficult for most people. they might enjoy sitting in traffic gridlock or waiting to get felt up at the airport. in other words, they have grown very used to the idea of traffic jams and 2-3 hour waits to board a plane. positive change is never an easy idea to implement.

I have NEVER denied that I look out for me first. Admit it? I declare it. Why? Look at your own paragraph. Even you notice it is "the other way around". So why should I bother with sacrificing for others? The only exception to that rule of self preservation are for very selected people who have proved themselves to me. 5 in my whole life. 1 is dead and that makes 4. The other group is my furry 4 legged children.

Even the few that do the "self sacrifice" bit. Is it real? Just like altruism, I suspect. In the final analysis, they are doing it for their own pleasure. If I give to the Salvation Army because I get a tax writeoff or that warm feeling in my tummy, what sort of altruism is it really? Still self interest.

__________________
01 Ford Excursion Powerstroke
99 E300 Turbodiesel
91 Vette with 383 motor
05 Polaris Sportsman 800 EFI
06 Polaris Sportsman 500 EFI
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Red
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Yellow
04 Tailgator 21 ft Toy Hauler
11 Harley Davidson 883 SuperLow

The question is whether it will become another Fannie May or Freddie Mac or Social Security. Have you figured out what the cost becomes later on? Fannie was created and then Freddie had to be created. Both spun off and now on the bailout list. SS money has been robbed for all sorts of purposes. Pools of money are "borrowed from" because they want to keep tossing out goodies and not have to trim expenses. Why is it those sort of expenses are never used in the calculation? Instead, we get rosy predictions of how good it will be.

__________________
01 Ford Excursion Powerstroke
99 E300 Turbodiesel
91 Vette with 383 motor
05 Polaris Sportsman 800 EFI
06 Polaris Sportsman 500 EFI
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Red
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Yellow
04 Tailgator 21 ft Toy Hauler
11 Harley Davidson 883 SuperLow

And when the rail system needs a bailout or the funds are used for nefarious purposes, who loses?

__________________
01 Ford Excursion Powerstroke
99 E300 Turbodiesel
91 Vette with 383 motor
05 Polaris Sportsman 800 EFI
06 Polaris Sportsman 500 EFI
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Red
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Yellow
04 Tailgator 21 ft Toy Hauler
11 Harley Davidson 883 SuperLow

Aklim brings up a good point. at the end of the day, aren't most people self serving? they don't give a rats behind about their neighbor. heck, at least my neighbors don't. it comes down to this: only the strong survive, the weak die off. and, with urbanization, most people are not into the "pulling together for the greater good" idea. city dwellers are more like the AC/DC song "Dog Eat Dog".

I hear you... I really do. But the fact is, we're spoiled with our cars, and it would take decades and a staggering amount of money to build a national rail system as comprehensive and reliable as, say, Germany's. Even then, I think folks would only use it if auto ownership costs were exponentially higher. That's just the way it is here. We're spoiled!

I don't mind taking the train from Munich to Garmisch when we visit Germany. However, if we want to head up the road for dinner, however, we need to make it an early dinner (before the buses quit running), or rent a car. It is what it is, I guess. There are certainly two sides to the coin, and valid arguments to be made for any number of positions.

__________________
1992 300D 2.5T
1980 Euro 300D (sadly, sold)
1998 Jetta TDI, 132K "Rudy"
1974 Triumph TR6
1999 Saab 9-5 wagon (wife's)