Whale Wars - Page 3 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

kknudson · #1 01-10-2010, 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jplinville

Whaling has been an integral part of Japan's society for more years than America has been around.

Who's idea is it that we force our mindset on another societies citizens?

it provides jobs, meat, and other assets needed by some of these people...let it be and move on

I do disagree with Whaling, but this really states my feeling on what we should do.

SwampYankee · #2 01-11-2010, 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jplinville

Whaling has been an integral part of Japan's society for more years than America has been around.

Who's idea is it that we force our mindset on another societies citizens?

it provides jobs, meat, and other assets needed by some of these people...let it be and move on

It threatens the Eskimo (Alaska) and Makah (Washington State) hunts.

SwampYankee · #3 01-11-2010, 09:47 AM

For some reason I felt drawn into the program and found it to be rather entertaining, at least the episodes I've seen. They're a bunch of crazy sons a b!tches, who while I don't necessarily agree completely with, give them credit for having the balls to put themselves in harms way to do what they think needs to be done.

While personally opposed to it, I'm not sure how it's anyone else's business but their own country's. I might have more respect for the Japanese, although probably not, if they didn't harvest the whales under the guise of research and claim the meat is but a mere byproduct of their experiments. Especially given how fast they process the carcass and immediately dispose of the non-edible parts.

Lots of people talk the talk, few walk the walk.

aklim · #4 01-11-2010, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SwampYankee

For some reason I felt drawn into the program and found it to be rather entertaining, at least the episodes I've seen. They're a bunch of crazy sons a b!tches, who while I don't necessarily agree completely with, give them credit for having the balls to put themselves in harms way to do what they think needs to be done.

While personally opposed to it, I'm not sure how it's anyone else's business but their own country's. I might have more respect for the Japanese, although probably not, if they didn't harvest the whales under the guise of research and claim the meat is but a mere byproduct of their experiments. Especially given how fast they process the carcass and immediately dispose of the non-edible parts.

Lots of people talk the talk, few walk the walk.

Isn't that the essence of vigilantism or a lynch mob? One could also put Bin Ladin in that same group for daring to do something and living the life of a fugitive when all others stood quietly.

#5 01-11-2010, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

Isn't that the essence of vigilantism or a lynch mob? One could also put Bin Ladin in that same group for daring to do something and living the life of a fugitive when all others stood quietly.

Absolutely, that is exactly how the U.S. government portrayed Bin Ladin and the other "freedom fighters" when their enemy was the USSR. That is also how current americans see their own revolutionary war. History is always written by the victors.

#6 01-10-2010, 07:45 PM

As much fun as messing with these clowns might be, whaling will eventually go away by treaty when there is sufficient international pressure.

davidmash · #7 01-11-2010, 01:56 PM

My understanding from watching a few of the episodes is that there is a difference of interpretation regarding the whaling laws.

The Japanese claim they are hunting whales for scientific purposes. As Swamp pointed out, there is every indication that their claim is BS of the first order. As far as I am aware, the Japanese are signatories of the international whaling treaty.

The Sea Shepard folks seem to be arguing that since the science claim is a load of crap, they are in violation of the treaty and since no one else doing anything to stop them and save the whales, it is up to them to exert pressure.

They do not believe they are vigilantes and nor do I. I believe they have firm legal ground to stand on and the rest of the of world is just sitting by because they do not care and have no interest in pissing off Japan.

aklim · #8 01-11-2010, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidmash

The Sea Shepard folks seem to be arguing that since the science claim is a load of crap, they are in violation of the treaty and since no one else doing anything to stop them and save the whales, it is up to them to exert pressure.

They do not believe they are vigilantes and nor do I. I believe they have firm legal ground to stand on and the rest of the of world is just sitting by because they do not care and have no interest in pissing off Japan.

How would that be any different from me saying that because the law doesn't GAS about money you owe me, it is up to me to do something illegal to exert pressure on you to pay up.

vig·i·lan·te (v

j

-l

n

t

)n.1. One who takes or advocates the taking of law enforcement into one's own hands.
2. A member of a vigilance committee.

Billybob · #9 01-11-2010, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidmash

My understanding from watching a few of the episodes is that there is a difference of interpretation regarding the whaling laws.

The Japanese claim they are hunting whales for scientific purposes. As Swamp pointed out, there is every indication that their claim is BS of the first order. As far as I am aware, the Japanese are signatories of the international whaling treaty.

The Sea Shepard folks seem to be arguing that since the science claim is a load of crap, they are in violation of the treaty and since no one else doing anything to stop them and save the whales, it is up to them to exert pressure.

They do not believe they are vigilantes and nor do I. I believe they have firm legal ground to stand on and the rest of the of world is just sitting by because they do not care and have no interest in pissing off Japan.

Do you dispute that the law allows for the harvesting whales for scientific
purposes?

ICRW, Article VII(1) provides that a party may “grant to any of its nationals a special permit authorizing that national to kill, take and treat whales for the purposes of scientific research”.

Here is the Japanese position:

In 1982, the IWC adopted the moratorium on commercial whaling on the grounds of insufficient scientific
knowledge concerning whales. The Government of Japan lodged an objection, but withdrew it in 1985, and
the 1986/87 whaling season marked the last commercial operation in the Antarctic by Japan. Thereafter, all
commercial whaling in the Antarctic has been suspended to this day.
In order to resolve the scientific uncertainties and pave the way for the resumption of sustainable whaling,
Japan started a research program, the Japanese Whale Research Program under Special Permit in the
Antarctic (JARPA), under Article VIII of the International Convention for the Regulation of Whaling. The
main purpose was to elucidate biological parameters of Antarctic minke whales (GOJ, 1987). The program
was launched in the 1987/88 austral summer season as a two-year feasibility study (1987/88 and 1988/89
seasons). The full program started in the 1989/90 season and it was a long-term program over eighteen years,
including the two years of feasibility studies. Since all commercial whaling had been suspended in the
Antarctic, the world's largest source of whale resources, JARPA was in effect the only comprehensive
research program that provided a time series of useful biological and ecological information for the
management of whale stocks in the Antarctic.

The IWC Scientific Committee conducted an interim review of JARPA results in 1997 (IWC, 1998). It was
agreed that information from JARPA has the potential to improve the management of Antarctic minke
whales.

http://www.icrwhale.org/eng/SC57O1.pdf

davidmash · #10 01-11-2010, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

How would that be any different from me saying that because the law doesn't GAS about money you owe me, it is up to me to do something illegal to exert pressure on you to pay up.

Were the whales not alive I can see your analogy. Were the actions of Sea Shepard and her crew being waged to reclaim property I would not agree with their action. How ever since their actions are in defense of living sentient beings I do not agree with your analogy.

This is a matter of protecting the innocent lives of animals on the planet. These are not animals that are bread and raised on a farm. They are a ward of the world. They are not personal property.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billybob

Do you dispute that the law allows for the harvesting whales for scientific
purposes?

I do and and so do a majority of the people. From everything I have read and seen, the Japanese are not doing any research. They are hunting for meat.

This is part of what Sea Shepard is fighting against.

http://earthtrust.org/dnaproj.html

This is an old article but there was a series of programs on recently where biologist went under cover to the meat sales in Japan and they still found illegal and endangered whale meat for sale.

The position of the Sea Shepard and her crew is that the Japanese are not doing any scientific research and are in violation of the treaty. They are defending the whales from the actions of an armed agressor who are in violation of the treaty.

Billybob · #11 01-11-2010, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidmash

They do not believe they are vigilantes and nor do I. I believe they have firm legal ground to stand on and the rest of the of world is just sitting by because they do not care and have no interest in pissing off Japan.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billybob

Do you dispute that the law allows for the harvesting whales for scientific purposes?

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidmash

I do and and so do a majority of the people. From everything I have read and seen, the Japanese are not doing any research. They are hunting for meat.

How do you reconcile your two statements?

“The rest of the world is just sitting by because the do not care and have no interest in pissing off Japan”

“I do and so do a majority of the people. (Dispute the law allows for the harvesting whales for scientific purposes)”

Does the world not care or do the majority dispute the law?

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidmash

This is a matter of protecting the innocent lives of animals on the planet. These are not animals that are bread and raised on a farm. They are a ward of the world. They are not personal property.

You won’t have any objection to farm raised whale or free range whale burgers then? If Costco starts selling them will you quit in protest?

davidmash · #12 01-11-2010, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billybob

How do you reconcile your two statements?

“The rest of the world is just sitting by because the do not care and have no interest in pissing off Japan”

“I do and so do a majority of the people. (Dispute the law allows for the harvesting whales for scientific purposes)”

Does the world not care or do the majority dispute the law?

You won’t have any objection to farm raised whale or free range whale burgers then? If Costco starts selling them will you quit in protest?

Governments do not care nor do they seem to want to get involved. People in general seem to care.

Private property is private property. So far, no one is breeding whales so I cannot speculate on how that would work.

aklim · #13 01-11-2010, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidmash

Were the whales not alive I can see your analogy. Were the actions of Sea Shepard and her crew being waged to reclaim property I would not agree with their action. How ever since their actions are in defense of living sentient beings I do not agree with your analogy.

This is a matter of protecting the innocent lives of animals on the planet. These are not animals that are bread and raised on a farm. They are a ward of the world. They are not personal property.

I do and and so do a majority of the people.

From everything I have read and seen, the Japanese are not doing any research. They are hunting for meat.

The position of the Sea Shepard and her crew is that the Japanese are not doing any scientific research and are in violation of the treaty. They are defending the whales from the actions of an armed agressor who are in violation of the treaty.

Mine is based on PRINCIPLE. I find that if you put enough loopholes, there is no point having any rules. If we don't allow people to take the law into their own hands, no matter what it is over, we cannot allow it whether it is property or a dog or a cat, etc, etc. Would you be as sympathetic to a kill or abortion doctors? After all, they too are protecting sentient life. Kill enough and they won't dare to perform abortions and sentient life will be saved. So we lose a few lives but we save more. In any case, they too are doing what they can to save lives as they see it. How far do you wish to go on that slippery slope?

And that is your opinion. To the Japanese, they are food like beef, pork and chicken.

And a majority of people supported the 3rd Reich and slavery at one time too. Doesn't make either desirable, does it?

That is something you take to the authorities. Sorry if it didn't get enough traction for your liking. Just because a spouse complains about the other partner and the authorities cannot and/or will not do anything about it doesn't mean you get to take the law into your own hands.

As sanctioned by what globally recognized legal body? The state of TX executing a man is legal. My execution of that same man is murder.

davidmash · #14 01-11-2010, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

Mine is based on PRINCIPLE. I find that if you put enough loopholes, there is no point having any rules. If we don't allow people to take the law into their own hands, no matter what it is over, we cannot allow it whether it is property or a dog or a cat, etc, etc. Would you be as sympathetic to a kill or abortion doctors? After all, they too are protecting sentient life. Kill enough and they won't dare to perform abortions and sentient life will be saved. So we lose a few lives but we save more. In any case, they too are doing what they can to save lives as they see it. How far do you wish to go on that slippery slope?

And that is your opinion. To the Japanese, they are food like beef, pork and chicken.

And a majority of people supported the 3rd Reich and slavery at one time too. Doesn't make either desirable, does it?

That is something you take to the authorities. Sorry if it didn't get enough traction for your liking. Just because a spouse complains about the other partner and the authorities cannot and/or will not do anything about it doesn't mean you get to take the law into your own hands.

As sanctioned by what globally recognized legal body? The state of TX executing a man is legal. My execution of that same man is murder.

When they can raise whales like beef pork or chicken they are more than welcome to harvest them like beef pork or chicken. As of right now, whales are for lack of a better word, in the public domain and 'belong to all of us'.

I never sanctioned the murder/killing of any one. Sea Shepard and her crew are placing them selves in the path of the whalers as a form of protest. No one is firing any weapons and no one is being assaulted. They are protesting peacefully and with non-lethal weapons such as stink bombs. If any thing, they are guilty of defacing/destroying private property.

Sometimes the majority is right, sometimes they are wrong. What's your point? A majority of people at one point supported Jim Crow laws and a majority of people supported civil rights later in time. What does that prove?

From my understanding there is no sanctioned legal body that has any enforcement capability. Japan signed the treaty and they are using a loop hole to get around it. When they actually publish an scientific research on the whale data they have collected their claim may hold some water. As it stands now, there are no published studies and their claim is hot air to justify the killing of the wales for meat to make money.

Not sure about you, but if I suspect that another persons life is in jeopardy and the law does nothing, I will do what I feel is necessary an worry about the legal consequences later.

davidmash · #15 01-11-2010, 06:00 PM

The exception is based on scientific research. So far there is none.

Yes and you want a one size fits all exempting you from having to deal with the fact that one size does not fit all. Gives you a lot of lee way in not having to deal with the fact that in this case, whales are being slaughtered with no valid purpose.

There are cases when the weather man is right and you damn well better head his/her warnings.

The loop hope they are using is not being substantiated by fact. They claim scientific research but have nothing to back that up. It's like claiming a 6,000 lb tax exemption for the large vehicle with a VW bug. Put it on a scale and lets see.

I see them as in clear violation of the treaty and no governments are stepping up to the plate. Sea Shepard and her crew are doing what other governments should be doing.

The underground rail road was illegal as I understand it. Those people were doing what needed to and should have been done since government was not going to step up. There are times when one does have to do what one thinks is right. History will judge them. In this case I think the Sea Shepard and her crew will be judged favorably. Hitler was not. Some times things do work out.