Whale Wars - Page 4 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

aklim · #46 01-11-2010, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidmash

Private property is private property. So far, no one is breeding whales so I cannot speculate on how that would work.

Abortion doctor killers work for your example then? Is that not a sentient life they are saving by killing and thus scaring off other abortion doctors? What about if the law fails to protect a child? Does the parent have the right to take the law into their own hands? To protect the child, that is.

davidmash · #47 01-11-2010, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

Mine is based on PRINCIPLE. I find that if you put enough loopholes, there is no point having any rules. If we don't allow people to take the law into their own hands, no matter what it is over, we cannot allow it whether it is property or a dog or a cat, etc, etc. Would you be as sympathetic to a kill or abortion doctors? After all, they too are protecting sentient life. Kill enough and they won't dare to perform abortions and sentient life will be saved. So we lose a few lives but we save more. In any case, they too are doing what they can to save lives as they see it. How far do you wish to go on that slippery slope?

And that is your opinion. To the Japanese, they are food like beef, pork and chicken.

And a majority of people supported the 3rd Reich and slavery at one time too. Doesn't make either desirable, does it?

That is something you take to the authorities. Sorry if it didn't get enough traction for your liking. Just because a spouse complains about the other partner and the authorities cannot and/or will not do anything about it doesn't mean you get to take the law into your own hands.

As sanctioned by what globally recognized legal body? The state of TX executing a man is legal. My execution of that same man is murder.

When they can raise whales like beef pork or chicken they are more than welcome to harvest them like beef pork or chicken. As of right now, whales are for lack of a better word, in the public domain and 'belong to all of us'.

I never sanctioned the murder/killing of any one. Sea Shepard and her crew are placing them selves in the path of the whalers as a form of protest. No one is firing any weapons and no one is being assaulted. They are protesting peacefully and with non-lethal weapons such as stink bombs. If any thing, they are guilty of defacing/destroying private property.

Sometimes the majority is right, sometimes they are wrong. What's your point? A majority of people at one point supported Jim Crow laws and a majority of people supported civil rights later in time. What does that prove?

From my understanding there is no sanctioned legal body that has any enforcement capability. Japan signed the treaty and they are using a loop hole to get around it. When they actually publish an scientific research on the whale data they have collected their claim may hold some water. As it stands now, there are no published studies and their claim is hot air to justify the killing of the wales for meat to make money.

Not sure about you, but if I suspect that another persons life is in jeopardy and the law does nothing, I will do what I feel is necessary an worry about the legal consequences later.

davidmash · #48 01-11-2010, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

Abortion doctor killers work for your example then? Is that not a sentient life they are saving by killing and thus scaring off other abortion doctors? What about if the law fails to protect a child? Does the parent have the right to take the law into their own hands? To protect the child, that is.

No. A fetus is not a sentient being. It's a parasite living off the mother. Again, the Sea Shepard crew are not killing anyone. They are protesting.

aklim · #49 01-11-2010, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidmash

When they can raise whales like beef pork or chicken they are more than welcome to harvest them like beef pork or chicken. As of right now, whales are for lack of a better word, in the public domain and 'belong to all of us'.

I never sanctioned the murder/killing of any one.

Sea Shepard and her crew are placing them selves in the path of the whalers as a form of protest. No one is firing any weapons and no one is being assaulted. They are protesting peacefully and with non-lethal weapons such as stink bombs. If any thing, they are guilty of defacing/destroying private property.

Sometimes the majority is right, sometimes they are wrong. What's your point? A majority of people at one point supported Jim Crow laws and a majority of people supported civil rights later in time. What does that prove?

From my understanding there is no sanctioned legal body that has any enforcement capability. Japan signed the treaty and they are using a loop hole to get around it. When they actually publish an scientific research on the whale data they have collected their claim may hold some water. As it stands now, there are no published studies and their claim is hot air to justify the killing of the wales for meat to make money.

Not sure about you, but if I suspect that another persons life is in jeopardy and the law does nothing, I will do what I feel is necessary an worry about the legal consequences later.

Didn't "all of us" give them a certain harvest?

Yes, I know. You tend to want to make a rule up for every circumstance as long as it conveniently fits into what you want. That is why you don't want to go by principles. Gives you a lot of leeway to say that no example is exactly like this case.

How is that peaceful protest? Standing on the public sidewalk is peaceful protest. Disrupting their operations is not peaceful protest. Running a blog about it is peaceful, throwing stinkbombs isn't peaceful. A protest march is peaceful. Trashing their offices isn't peaceful.

My point is that citing the majority is about as useful quoting the weatherman.

Yes, I agree with you that they are using a loophole. Yes, I also agree with you that we should not have had that loophole there. I don't like people abusing a loophole any more than you do. That said, there are many loopholes in our system or any system. Sorry about that but it is what it is. That does not justify vigilantism. Where do you want to draw the line where you will allow vigilantism and will not? It is a slippery slope.

Will you allow everyone else to do the same or is it just you and your sanctioned causes? If you have the right to do as you wish, can we still have law and order? Granted it wasn't, isn't and never will be perfect? We do have a lot of people escaping on a technicality or some other loophole.

aklim · #50 01-11-2010, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidmash

No. A fetus is not a sentient being. It's a parasite living off the mother.

Again, the Sea Shepard crew are not killing anyone. They are protesting.

While I agree with you on that 1000%, do realize that there are millions of other who feel the opposite.

No, you are sanitizing and sugar coating their actions. Had it been the whale hunters disrupting their offices, do you think you'd be so kind to them? I think not. Would you be ok with the hunters sending a crew to sabotage the Sea Shepard? Maybe not sink it but just leave it dead in the water?

davidmash · #51 01-11-2010, 06:00 PM

The exception is based on scientific research. So far there is none.

Yes and you want a one size fits all exempting you from having to deal with the fact that one size does not fit all. Gives you a lot of lee way in not having to deal with the fact that in this case, whales are being slaughtered with no valid purpose.

There are cases when the weather man is right and you damn well better head his/her warnings.

The loop hope they are using is not being substantiated by fact. They claim scientific research but have nothing to back that up. It's like claiming a 6,000 lb tax exemption for the large vehicle with a VW bug. Put it on a scale and lets see.

I see them as in clear violation of the treaty and no governments are stepping up to the plate. Sea Shepard and her crew are doing what other governments should be doing.

The underground rail road was illegal as I understand it. Those people were doing what needed to and should have been done since government was not going to step up. There are times when one does have to do what one thinks is right. History will judge them. In this case I think the Sea Shepard and her crew will be judged favorably. Hitler was not. Some times things do work out.

aklim · #52 01-11-2010, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidmash

The exception is based on scientific research. So far there is none.

Yes and you want a one size fits all exempting you from having to deal with the fact that one size does not fit all. Gives you a lot of lee way in not having to deal with the fact that in this case, whales are being slaughtered with no valid purpose.

There are cases when the weather man is right and you damn well better head his/her warnings.

The loop hope they are using is not being substantiated by fact. They claim scientific research but have nothing to back that up. It's like claiming a 6,000 lb tax exemption for the large vehicle with a VW bug. Put it on a scale and lets see.

I see them as in clear violation of the treaty and no governments are stepping up to the plate. Sea Shepard and her crew are doing what other governments should be doing.

There are times when one does have to do what one thinks is right. History will judge them. In this case I think the Sea Shepard and her crew will be judged favorably. Hitler was not. Some times things do work out.

And that is something that should be brought up to whomever that authority is that gave them the legal right.

So what happens when it is another case? One that isn't popular with you? Where will you draw the line? Where your pet causes end? Can someone else draw a line at a different point?

Wouldn't bet on them. I have gotten soaked by "partly cloudy".

Again, I agree. However, YOU are not the convening authority. You call it in and if they take action, so be it. If not, too bad. That is just like WVO or home brew biodiesel. You don't get to disrupt their operations because the IRS doesn't take action against those scofflaws who use the road and not pay taxes.

And there are people who do that too. That is why they have vigilantes and mob justice. Those fine upstanding indivuduals are stepping up and doing what the govt is not doing. Would you catagorize them in the same way? What about OBL? He, in his mind, is stepping up and doing what the world will not do.

Ah, but Sir, when are those times? Who decides when those times are? Can I say that history will judge me favorably if I assassinate so and so and go free on that? If you allow Sea Shepard and it's crew to make that judgment, can I too make that judgment and escape punishment? I should hope not. Govt Action or Inaction is NOT license for you to do as you please. Otherwise, at what point can we establish some law?

Billybob · #53 01-11-2010, 10:04 PM

This is what happens when your source is Animal Planet TV and other greenie weenie propaganda!

Quote:

Originally Posted by SwampYankee

I might have more respect for the Japanese, although probably not, if they didn't harvest the whales under the guise of research and claim the meat is but a mere byproduct of their experiments. Especially given how fast they process the carcass and immediately dispose of the non-edible parts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidmash

My understanding from watching a few of the episodes is that there is a difference of interpretation regarding the whaling laws.
The Japanese claim they are hunting whales for scientific purposes. As Swamp pointed out, there is every indication that their claim is BS of the first order. As far as I am aware, the Japanese are signatories of the international whaling treaty.

The Sea Shepard folks seem to be arguing that since the science claim is a load of crap, they are in violation of the treaty and since no one else doing anything to stop them and save the whales, it is up to them to exert pressure.

They do not believe they are vigilantes and nor do I. I believe they have firm legal ground to stand on and the rest of the of world is just sitting by because they do not care and have no interest in pissing off Japan.

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidmash

I do and and so do a majority of the people. From everything I have read and seen, the Japanese are not doing any research. They are hunting for meat.

This is part of what Sea Shepard is fighting against.

http://earthtrust.org/dnaproj.html

This is an old article but there was a series of programs on recently where biologist went under cover to the meat sales in Japan and they still found illegal and endangered whale meat for sale.

The position of the Sea Shepard and her crew is that the Japanese are not doing any scientific research and are in violation of the treaty. They are defending the whales from the actions of an armed agressor who are in violation of the treaty.

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidmash

Japan signed the treaty and they are using a loop hole to get around it. When they actually publish an scientific research on the whale data they have collected their claim may hold some water. As it stands now, there are no published studies and their claim is hot air to justify the killing of the wales for meat to make money.

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidmash

The exception is based on scientific research. So far there is none.

Yes and you want a one size fits all exempting you from having to deal with the fact that one size does not fit all. Gives you a lot of lee way in not having to deal with the fact that in this case, whales are being slaughtered with no valid purpose.

The loop hope they are using is not being substantiated by fact. They claim scientific research but have nothing to back that up. It's like claiming a 6,000 lb tax exemption for the large vehicle with a VW bug. Put it on a scale and lets see.

I see them as in clear violation of the treaty and no governments are stepping up to the plate. Sea Shepard and her crew are doing what other governments should be doing.

Except that the International Whaling Commission and Japan’s Institute for Cetacean Research proves otherwise!

http://www.icrwhale.org/eng-index.htm:

232 scientific documents presented to the IWC between 1989 and 2008
159 scientific papers published in peer reviewed journals between 1989 and 2008

Listed here:
http://www.icrwhale.org/DocumentList.htm

87 scientific papers submitted during JARPA/JARPAN/JARPANII reviews in 2000, 2005, 2006, and 2009 called for by the Government of Japan and the IWC.

The conclusion of each report, of each review identifies the value of the sceintic research derived from the ICR JARPA/N/NII programs by the IWC Special Permit Meetings.

2000
http://www.icrwhale.org/eng/workshop.pdf
2005
http://www.icrwhale.org/eng/JARPA_Report.pdf
2006
http://www.icrwhale.org/eng/2006JARPAReport.pdf
2009
http://www.icrwhale.org/eng/workshop2.pdf

Regarding the range of whale research conducted;

http://www.icrwhale.org/generalinfo.htm

And of particular interest with regard to Greenpeace:
http://www.icrwhale.org/collision0.htm

and Sea Sheppard
http://www.icrwhale.org/eng/history.pdf

and with regard to the sale of whale meat in Japan:

“You may also be aware that Article VIII of the ICRW requires that "any whales taken under these special permits shall so far as practicable be processed and the proceeds shall be dealt with in accordance with directions issued by the Government by which the permit was granted". This means that the Convention requires the utilization of meat and other byproducts of the research.
The fact that whale meat resulting from the research program is sold makes the research program consistent with this provision of the ICRW. It does not provide a basis for Prime Minister Clark's reference to Japan's research program as "so-called research" or "commercial whaling in disguise". Indeed, the Prime Minister's media statement seems to parrot Greenpeace rather than present a sound rational for New Zealand's position on whaling issues.”

http://www.icrwhale.org/correcting.htm

davidmash · #54 01-11-2010, 11:40 PM

I was listening to a marine biologist a while back who was talking about the studies mentioned above. He pointed out that a majority of the 'studies' did not require the slaughter of the animal. Distribution of Krill, Lipids level, mitochondrial studies... etc could all be done with out harming the animals. They can publish all the studies they wish, very few if any require the killing of the animals.

aklim · #55 01-11-2010, 11:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidmash

I was listening to a marine biologist a while back who was talking about the studies mentioned above. He pointed out that a majority of the 'studies' did not require the slaughter of the animal. Distribution of Krill, Lipids level, mitochondrial studies... etc could all be done with out harming the animals. They can publish all the studies they wish, very few if any require the killing of the animals.

OK. Fair enough. Lets see what you said:

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidmash

When they actually publish an scientific research on the whale data they have collected their claim may hold some water. As it stands now, there are no published studies and their claim is hot air to justify the killing of the wales for meat to make money.

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidmash

The exception is based on scientific research. So far there is none.

I guess there ARE published studies after all.

So now your requirements change to support your cause.

davidmash · #56 01-11-2010, 11:51 PM

OK.

Billybob · #57 01-12-2010, 12:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidmash

I was listening to a marine biologist a while back who was talking about the studies mentioned above. He pointed out that a majority of the 'studies' did not require the slaughter of the animal. Distribution of Krill, Lipids level, mitochondrial studies... etc could all be done with out harming the animals. They can publish all the studies they wish, very few if any require the killing of the animals.

Do you even know what Lipids levels and mitochondrial studies are?

Lipids are naturally-occurring molecules which includes fats, waxes, sterols, fat-soluble vitamins present in living organisms, maybe you can tell us how getting blood and tissues from whales living in Antarctic seas would be accomplished? Mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) is the DNA located in organelles called mitochondria, structures within cells that convert the energy from food into a form that cells can use. Again please explain how the marine biologist you where listening to a while back proposed securing living tissues from whales living in Antarctic seas?

Don't suppose you can recall the biologist or any of his "work" in this area, or was he on the Animal Planet TV also? If so what was the show?

TheDon · #58 01-12-2010, 12:59 AM

so why do we even need these studies. My life goes on not knowing the lipid count

davidmash · #59 01-12-2010, 01:49 AM

It was on the radio not that it matters.

Do you think they might be able to shoot a hollow dart into the animals skin to obtain a sample? I seem to recall a NGC program where they obtained blood samples from a living whale in the ocean. Imagine that.

Some how the idea of killing animals under the guise of scientific study makes about as much sense as screwing for virginity. I just don't see it.

Bottom line is I believe killing the whales is wrong. I applaud the Sea Shepard and her crew for what they are doing. I was fortunate to see a hump back up close while in Alaska. Looked him (according to the guide) in the eye. Not quite like looking a tuna or a salmon in the eye.

Billybob · #60 01-12-2010, 01:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDon

so why do we even need these studies. My life goes on not knowing the lipid count

There have been numerous studies that link the failure of 20 year old male nerds to get any a$$ to their failure to appreciate lipid levels in global cetacean populations! Get with the program!

Seriously, knowing your not a dumb a$$ I’m assuming your question was smart a$$!

The truth is whale hunting was stopped because of declines in whale populations, the Japanese as well as the Norway, Sweden, Finland, Iceland and aboriginal populations in Canada northwest US have an interest in resuming whale hunting and harvest when whale populations return to a level that could sustain commercial harvesting. It is likely that whale populations will rebound as has already been demonstrated buy species like the California gray whales and humpback whales. There will potentially come a time when the restored populations of whales could be a hazard or pests like sea lions, wolves, mountain lions, and whitetail deer are in some places. When that condition exists, the people who have cultural traditions that include whale hunting and killing will legitimately have their argument that they should no longer be denied their cultural heritage.

Prior to the IWC banning commercial whaling there had been virtually no scientific research done and the Japanese in particular have decided that harvesting specimens to better understand whales and their populations is needed to most effectively and efficiently manage populations towards sustainability.

The Free Willy intoxicated will likely never recognize the rights of people they disagree with until whales start eating people again, and eat some of their people! A world with oceans full of whales sounds great until you see those Orca’s off the beach in Patagonia eating fat seals like Buffalo Chicken Wings and then imagine them off the beaches in California and Cape Cod dining on trans-fattened bathers! Man that would be spectacular! Or when the beer belly family on their weekender runabout sport craft are a mile of two offshore and sunning and fishing and a sperm whale pops up and dumps them into Gulf Stream and spends the next hour or two chasing them like a cat does a mouse before crunching them down!

There are many stories of sea creatures harvesting humans throughout history that have a basis in reality for ancient people. Along that line a great read is the story of the Whale Ship Essex, and their tale of sinking by a giant sperm whale while hunting other whales in the pod. 3,000 miles across the southern pacific in small boats eating your dead buddies until there wasn’t any dead ones left. Then selecting who would be killed for food, and who would do the killing, by choosing lots!