Bigotry Definition - Page 4 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

Billybob · #46 11-11-2010, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LarryBible

I posted a thread with about 20 replies to see what some of you have COMPLETE INTOLERANCE for. It seems that many of you, even some who termed ME as a bigot have bigotry of your own.

In this battle of wits, your adversaries are unarmed and defenseless, Larry, and you show them no mercy!

aklim · #47 11-11-2010, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LarryBible

The historical perspective is the most important part.

It's also the most confusing part. IMO, the confusion is caused by the simple fact that people want the brass ring but don't want to and/or cannot jump high enough to grab it. As such, they make up different grades to sooth themselves. I'm a thief but you are a worse thief because you stole more money than me but he is an even worse thief than both of us because he stole even more money than the both of us. Either stop stealing or accept and live with the label. Madoff is a bad thief but Robin Hood is a good thief. WTF? They both stole, they both are thieves as far as I am concerned.

kerry · #48 11-11-2010, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LarryBible

What I add to this, however, is that I don't see very much difference between Sodomites and Pedophiles.

I was trying to stay out of this thread but when I read this I couldn't. If you are serious in this statement, then it appears you can't draw a very fundamental distinction between consent to engage in something and being coerced to engage in something. Pedophilia is considered wrong by most people because the children cannot consent in any meaningful way to the sexual relationship. Sodomy of any kind between adults is not considered wrong by most people as long as the participants consent to it. Can you give any credible reasonable argument against oral or anal sex between consenting adults?

The one thing I think the definition lacks is any mention of rationality. Bigotry is irrational intolerance. Intolerance of murderers is not irrational, hence not bigotry.

#49 11-11-2010, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerry

I was trying to stay out of this thread but when I read this I couldn't. If you are serious in this statement, then it appears you can't draw a very fundamental distinction between consent to engage in something and being coerced to engage in something. Pedophilia is considered wrong by most people because the children cannot consent in any meaningful way to the sexual relationship. Sodomy of any kind between adults is not considered wrong by most people as long as the participants consent to it. Can you give any credible reasonable argument against oral or anal sex between consenting adults?

The one thing I think the definition lacks is any mention of rationality. Bigotry is irrational intolerance. Intolerance of murderers is not irrational, hence not bigotry.

LOL, how did you let yourself get dragged into this ridiculous discussion. I very much doubt it was a serious statement.

kerry · #50 11-11-2010, 08:31 PM

It was a moment of weakness.

aklim · #51 11-11-2010, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerry

The one thing I think the definition lacks is any mention of rationality. Bigotry is irrational intolerance. Intolerance of murderers is not irrational, hence not bigotry.

Rationality is also another subjective thing. Hitler could have and did justify the slaughter of 6 million jews. If I understand his ramblings, and I can't wrap my mind around it when I tried years ago, his basis is just as sound as yours. You view murderers as dangerous to the group. He viewed the jews as a culture destroying group and hence dangerous to the good honest german folk. IF we accept his premise, he was justified in their extermination as I would be justified in my trying to kill cockroaches or rats who spread disease to us. Slavery could also be justified if we accept the premise that black people were sub-human like a horse or a cow.

IF we talk pedophilia, there are people and books that will tell you that if you accept that NAMBLA members aren't vicious kid haters and that a loving relationship between me and a 8 yo boy is healthy, we should be fine with me doing boys.

What makes your rationality any better than Hitler, Stalin, NAMBLA, etc, etc? Your rationality just happens to be the rationality du jour? In ancient Greece they didn't have a problem with an instructor doing his student. Athenian law was good with it. They didn't care about consent and age. Pederasty was fine with their society. Again, the times.

kerry · #52 11-11-2010, 08:42 PM

There are lots of disagreement between people on what rational behavior is, but rationality itself is not subjective. Is there debate between logicians about what counts as a legitimate inference or not. There isn't a different logic in China than in Canada.

jt20 · #53 11-11-2010, 09:22 PM

Hope you had a peaceful Veteran's Day, Larry.

MTUpower · #54 11-11-2010, 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerry

There are lots of disagreement between people on what rational behavior is, but rationality itself is not subjective. Is there debate between logicians about what counts as a legitimate inference or not. There isn't a different logic in China than in Canada.

But it is- reference the Greeks who thought boinking young boys was okay- society did not disapprove of it, and thought it was rational, normal behavior. Boinking a young boy is not considered "rational" now- so yes it is subjective. Does that make sense or did I miss something?

kerry · #55 11-11-2010, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MTUpower

But it is- reference the Greeks who thought boinking young boys was okay- society did not disapprove of it, and thought it was rational, normal behavior. Boinking a young boy is not considered "rational" now- so yes it is subjective. Does that make sense or did I miss something?

Yes, you did. I was talking about rationality as rules of inference, as a method for connecting premises with conclusions, not about whether the application of those rules would result in uniform conclusions about what was good or bad human behavior. I was thinking of rationality as the belief that human culture should be directed by critical, reflective thought and not by authority or emotion.
My view is that bigotry is not based on rational thinking. It is the holding of certain values or the belief that certain practices are right or wrong, not on the basis of reason but on some other basis such as emotion or authority, or tradition. This doesn't mean that rational people will agree on what is good or bad behavior. It just means that bigotry springs from different sources than rational disagreement.
Bigots are unlikely to be swayed by rational discussion since they don't hold their views on the basis of reason.

aklim · #56 11-11-2010, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerry

There are lots of disagreement between people on what rational behavior is, but rationality itself is not subjective.

Is there debate between logicians about what counts as a legitimate inference or not. There isn't a different logic in China than in Canada.

See, this is why going off a dictionary definition has little debate. This is the word. Either it is or it isn't. Problem is people cannot achieve the gold standard so the water it down so they can fit in. This is like if I can't get an "A" in calc because I don't have the 95 points, lets lower the standard to 75 points.

No, but if you accept certain premises, you can make anything logical.

t walgamuth · #57 11-11-2010, 10:34 PM

Bigotry is a very strong word to me. It suggests reveling in a predjudice.

Now everybody is prejudiced about all kinds of things, most of which are rational and help us get through life. Now when it comes to irrational prejudice where a person judges another person on superficial characteristics or beliefs it is harmful and become bigotry.

I admit I am prejudiced in many ways but I try not to be about people.

The trying not to be is the key.

aklim · #58 11-11-2010, 10:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by t walgamuth

Now everybody is prejudiced about all kinds of things, most of which are rational and help us get through life. Now when it comes to irrational prejudice where a person judges another person on superficial characteristics or beliefs it is harmful and become bigotry.

I admit I am prejudiced in many ways but I try not to be about people.

The trying not to be is the key.

Simplely put, we are a prejudiced people. We don't want to admit it so we rationalize certain things so we can say we are not prejudiced and sound good to others. Somehow, I missed seeing that part in the dictionary

kerry · #59 11-11-2010, 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

Simplely put, we are a prejudiced people. We don't want to admit it so we rationalize certain things so we can say we are not prejudiced and sound good to others. Somehow, I missed seeing that part in the dictionary

All that is true. We are prejudiced and rationality can be rationalization. But it doesn't mean that all rationality is rationalization nor all judgments simply prejudiced. There is a difference between a bigot and someone interested in exploring a life of reason.

davidmash · #60 11-11-2010, 11:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LarryBible

Since we are being so open and honest with each other. I share your feeling that there are different levels of bigotry. I too believe that murderers and pedophiles have to be at a different level than other groups when it comes to intolerance.

What I add to this, however, is that I don't see very much difference between Sodomites and Pedophiles.

Hence you being a bigot. One involves a minor unable to legally give consent. The other involves consenting adults. I have no idea why you can't see the difference ..... never mind.. yes I can.