Why Can't Johhny Read? (in WI) - Page 4 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

Skid Row Joe · #46 02-22-2011, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chas H

So why are whining about teachers? Because a Republican governor thinks he will balance the state budget when collective bargaining stops?
Are you posting from work?

Are you posting from your Union hall?

The WI voters want the unions busted. Democracy in action, son.

Skid Row Joe · #47 02-22-2011, 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamesDean

I'm not defending the teachers of Wisconsin or anything in the following statements. The amount of money spent per pupil has nothing to do with quality or level of education.

Correct.

Wisconsin is producing a failing product on the market.

Why? Incompetent teaching.

Replace the unproductive teacher union worker with productive non-union workers.

Problem solved.

Chas H · #48 02-22-2011, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skid Row Joe

Are you posting from your Union hall?

The WI voters want the unions busted. Democracy in action, son.

Nope, I've worked for myself since 1971. I'm not defending the union, I'm criticizing your attitude. You've been whining about teacher's performance and that simply is not the issue.
I think Wi should go ahead with what they can do, but I don't think the guvnors plans are going to balance the state budget. But the guvnor is losing support from the voters, not gaining it.

Chas H · #49 02-22-2011, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skid Row Joe

Correct.

Wisconsin is producing a failing product on the market.

Why? Incompetent teaching.

Replace the unproductive teacher union worker with productive non-union workers.

Problem solved.

Replace it with what? Where as these new teachers coming from? Out your butt?

pj67coll · #50 02-22-2011, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skid Row Joe

So, answer why do these public schools exist?

Since you seem to think they have NO culpability.

"Two-thirds of the eighth graders in Wisconsin public schools cannot read proficiently according to the U.S. Department of Education, despite the fact that Wisconsin spends more per pupil in its public schools than any other state in the Midwest."

Never said there were no problems with public schools. There are plenty. But public schools are a product of their society. And given the degeneration of that society it's not in the least bit surprising that it's problems overwhelm many schools. I repeat. Schools can teach, they cannot motivate. That is the parents job and if they don't do so they are piss poor excuses for parents, citizens, and general worthwhile human beings.

- Peter.

Skid Row Joe · #51 02-22-2011, 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chas H

Replace it with what? Where as these new teachers coming from? Out your butt?

Skid Row Joe · #52 02-22-2011, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pj67coll

Never said there were no problems with public schools. There are plenty. But public schools are a product of their society. And given the degeneration of that society it's not in the least bit surprising that it's problems overwhelm many schools. I repeat. Schools can teach, they cannot motivate. That is the parents job and if they don't do so they are piss poor excuses for parents, citizens, and general worthwhile human beings.

- Peter.

Well, your Wisconsin public schools with union workers are failing. Just like GM, and Chrysler. They need to change or be replaced. They are producing a failing product by 66%.

That's unacceptable.

JamesDean · #53 02-22-2011, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skid Row Joe

aklim, you want to fire the customer. The customer is your unpaid student.

You are paying teachers (employees) to perform, then when they do not, you are blaming the customer (student).

You need to change the responsibility here - because your company is going down the tubes/belly-up with your employees (teachers).

How does firing the customer helping you??!!

While you keep unproductive deadweight employees (teachers)???

You can't apply that method of thinking to the educational system, it doesn't always work....

You are the manager of the manufacturing facility.

You are paying the foremen (teachers) to operate your assembly line, and train your workers (students)...and when the line fails to produce a quality product you look at your foremen..

Foremen say the workers are distracted, wont learn their jobs, are unruly....

In the business world, Manager says to fire workers and hire better suited...

In the public education world, manger cannot fire the students (everyone has a right to a public education) so the fault then lies fully on the teachers right?

In the public education world its a two way street. The customer (student) is not always right and sometimes needs reinforcement from outside parties (parents)

HuskyMan · #54 02-22-2011, 06:45 PM

Everyday, in some way, I'm reminded of just how disadvantaged I am because I received a "public education". Private schools will ALWAYS trump public schools. Private schools cost $$$$ which means only the haves can afford it. The have nots end up with a "public education".

The divide between the haves and the have nots grows wider.

Chas H · #55 02-22-2011, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamesDean

You can't apply that method of thinking to the educational system, it doesn't always work....

You are the manager of the manufacturing facility.

You are paying the foremen (teachers) to operate your assembly line, and train your workers (students)...and when the line fails to produce a quality product you look at your foremen..

Foremen say the workers are distracted, wont learn their jobs, are unruly....

In the business world, Manager says to fire workers and hire better suited...

In the public education world, manger cannot fire the students (everyone has a right to a public education) so the fault then lies fully on the teachers right?

In the public education world its a two way street. The customer (student) is not always right and sometimes needs reinforcement from outside parties (parents)

I managed to confuse SRJ with one sentence. This is gonna make his head explode.

JamesDean · #56 02-22-2011, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skid Row Joe

Correct.

Wisconsin is producing a failing product on the market.

Why? Incompetent teaching.

Replace the unproductive teacher union worker with productive non-union workers.

Problem solved.

Are you sure about that? What if the non-union workers encounter the same problem as their union counterparts? What if their productivity is the same?

Are you completely rejecting the possibility that the parents/children are at fault, even if only partially?

Kuan · #57 02-22-2011, 07:06 PM

The article doesn't address the situation compared to other states. Understandable since WI is in the crosshairs of many critics at the moment. If you look at the .pdf from the Department of Education website, the same one that this article cites, you will see that Wisconsin is better than 32 states and tied with three others.

Also at the end of it Wisconsins graduation rate is consistently over 90%. Plus Wisconsin's ACT scores are also consistently among the 2nd and 3rd in the nation. If that doesn't put the issue to rest then your beef must be with teachers in general and not WI teachers.

Txjake · #58 02-22-2011, 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamesDean

Are you sure about that? What if the non-union workers encounter the same problem as their union counterparts? What if their productivity is the same?

Are you completely rejecting the possibility that the parents/children are at fault, even if only partially?

parents and children may be partially at fault, but they cant be fired. the teachers are the only component of the equation that is compensated and thus able to be held resonsible an be removed.

Chas H · #59 02-22-2011, 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamesDean

Are you sure about that? What if the non-union workers encounter the same problem as their union counterparts? What if their productivity is the same?

Are you completely rejecting the possibility that the parents/children are at fault, even if only partially?

The WI guvnor is attempting to balance the budget, not improve education, by eliminating collective bargaining. Skid Row is way off the topic.

elchivito · #60 02-22-2011, 07:32 PM

Thanks for the chuckles here! I especially find the simplistic equations "union teachers = nonproductive and non-union teachers = productive to be laughable. In addition comparing teachers and those who work in businesses is silly. Students have been referred to here at least once as a "product". Okay, let's say they are.
If I own a business making, say, tomato paste, and a train carload of bad tomatoes reaches my plant, I can turn it down, send it back if it doesn't meet my expectations for raw materials. If students are indeed "products" in any sense remotely close to a business model, then they must also by definition be "raw materials" when they first enter school. Can I, as the teacher ("producer", according to the logic of the silly comparison) turn away bad raw materials? In public schools, I cannot. I'm expected to make silk purses out of sow's ears.
Anyone who hasn't spent time in the classroom hasn't a clue the baggage kids come to school with these days. Broken homes, single parent homes, drugs, alcohol, joblessness, you name it. I counted myself and my students fortunate if they'd all at least come to school in the morning having had BREAKFAST that somebody cooked for them. I don't believe it ever happened. Anyone who thinks this doesn't weigh heavily on the minds of even the youngest kids in school and affect their ability to concentrate and feel good about learning is a fool.
Walk into the average 6th or 7th grade classroom and ask for a show of hands from those who have gone to the same school since kindergarten. You'll find the number frighteningly low. The lack of continuity in education is a serious, well studied detriment to success in school. Parents are the first teachers, and NO teacher can teach ANYONE ANYTHING he isn't prepared to learn and doesn't want to learn. I say this with LEARNING meaning the actual long term acquisition of knowledge and the ability to reason, not short term retention of meaningless stuff that is only retained long enough to pass some ill conceived test.
My state is a right to work state. I taught for 31 years and still consult in classrooms. I have never been a union member or for that matter even a member of the NEA, which contrary to anti union sentiment is NOT a union. I have worked with master teachers who come from both non union and union backgrounds, and have worked with slugs from the same two camps. If only it was as simple as those who'd like it be simple think it is.

Carry on.