I'll allow for "less than expected" amounts.

It certainly wasn't directed at you, just an unfortunate timing that it followed your post directly (I try to quote any post I'm directing a comment towards to avoid any confusion, otherwise it's just a general comment). And by all means, rant away! It feels good to get stuff off your chest every now and then. I know it helped me.

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1980 300TD-China Blue/Blue MBTex-2nd Owner, 107K (Alt Blau) OBK #15
'06 Chevy Tahoe Z71 (for the wife & 4 kids, current mule) '03 Honda Odyssey (son #1's ride, reluctantly) '99 GMC Suburban (255K+ miles, semi-retired mule) 21' SeaRay Seville (summer escape pod)

Details, details...

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1980 300TD-China Blue/Blue MBTex-2nd Owner, 107K (Alt Blau) OBK #15
'06 Chevy Tahoe Z71 (for the wife & 4 kids, current mule) '03 Honda Odyssey (son #1's ride, reluctantly) '99 GMC Suburban (255K+ miles, semi-retired mule) 21' SeaRay Seville (summer escape pod)

That shouldn't come as a surprise. The political divide is perhaps greater now than it's ever been and discourse has given way to rancor amongst our elected officials. The constituents follow suit.

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1980 300TD-China Blue/Blue MBTex-2nd Owner, 107K (Alt Blau) OBK #15
'06 Chevy Tahoe Z71 (for the wife & 4 kids, current mule) '03 Honda Odyssey (son #1's ride, reluctantly) '99 GMC Suburban (255K+ miles, semi-retired mule) 21' SeaRay Seville (summer escape pod)

Yep, I've seen some of his stuff.

The more I employee the Ignore List option, encourage and practice behavior that I support, etc the more these OD exchanges are pleasant.

I'm recovering from my last (no more - yeah!!!) surgery so I have ample time to do this. By the end of the month I hope to finalize this phase of the business plan and go to the next round of funding so my time here will be limited.

What's truly sad is when members from an affluent society and upbringing who have pursued a high-level career (attorney, academia, etc) can't or wont engage in civil, reasoned discourse.

Gee.....talk about who the pot is calling the Kettle black.....

Not supprisingly its the left that spews propaganda with no basis in reality....yet they are the ones who get their panties in a knot when someone disagrees....


Just like Obama having his tantrum when he walked out of the talks when everyone wouldn't do it his way.

The left never changes....to them its always their way or the hiway.

Most liberals prefer monologs and not dialog....thankfully not all of them. They know who they are. And not all liberals are self righteous or arrogant either, but a lot are. And most pretend to be authorities on topics they know nothing about except what they read in some liberal leaning newspaper.

I've spent most of my adult life in and around the federal government, its agencies and Embassies.

You have no idea how different what you see on the evening news is from what really happened in a lot of cases I have seen both sides of...and there is no reason to believe the ones I didn't are any different.

People that believe everything they read or watch as being 100% accurate are seriously misguided....they ALL throw their spin on it....based on their own bias.

There is no law that requires reporters be unbiased...or even honest. But there should.

And only pussies use the ignore feature because they aren't man enough to debate.

__________________
Proud owner of ....
1971 280SE W108
1979 300SD W116
1983 300D W123
1975 Ironhead Sportster chopper
1987 GMC 3/4 ton 4X4 Diesel
1989 Honda Civic (Heavily modified)
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Section 609 MVAC Certified
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"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche

and don't forget bin Laden.

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1985 380SE Blue/Blue - 230,000 miles
2012 Subaru Forester 5-speed
2005 Toyota Sienna
2004 Chrysler Sebring convertible
1999 Toyota Tacoma

Really? The conditions named - being a property owner and taxpayer - were a prerequisite for voting when this country was first founded, and for many years afterwards.

IMHO, it was along the same line of thinking as to why they created a representative republic instead of a pure democracy - if a person had enough intelligence and/or education to acquire property and wealth, it followed that they had enough of the same to make informed decisions about how the country should be run and it's future course - instead of succumbing to the emotions and wants of the moment, with no thought of future consequences, as was so often the case in a pure mob democracy. Also, if a person acquired property and wealth, and willingly paid taxes, it meant that person had decided to put down roots in this country and had a stake in it's future well-being - not an opportunist gaming the system for their own profit, moving on to the next country when there was nothing further to be gained.

There are still prerequisites to being allowed to vote even today.

A 17 year old cannot vote. They are old enough to have graduated from high school, old enough to serve in the military, but not old enough by law to vote. Do we consider said person a second class citizen? No - the accepted benchmark by society and law is that you must be 18 years old to be allowed to vote. And until 40 years ago the benchmark was 21 years old.

And until the "motor voter" registration laws of recent years, to be allowed to register to vote there were time requirements as to how long you had resided in a community (ie, showing intent to be a permanent resident), provide an address of a place of residence, and usually one other item that showed your intent to be a permanent resident - paying state and local taxes.

For that matter, not paying federal taxes need only apply to voting for FEDERAL office, voting at the state and local level unaffected or to be decided by the individual states. In some states without a state income tax, only a statewide sales tax that everyone must pay regardless, the only fair option would be to allow all those residing in the state, allowing they were of legal age and met all other prerequisites, to vote in state and local elections.

On the other extreme, there are those that argue that illegals - non-citizens or citizens of another country - be allowed to vote in U.S. elections. For that matter, given the amount of voter registration fraud in this country by BOTH parties, I'm rather confident that a substantial number of illegals have already been voting in U.S. elections for at least the past few cycles. IOW, they are proposing that it no longer be a prerequisite to be a U.S. citizen to vote in this country's elections.

Simply put, there always has been and still are prerequisites that need to be met before someone is allowed to vote - just a matter of how many and to what degree we are willing to impose and live with.

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Just say "NO" to Ethanol - Drive Diesel

Mitchell Oates
Mooresville, NC
'87 300D 212K miles
'87 300D 151K miles - R.I.P. 12/08
'05 Jeep Liberty CRD 67K miles
Grumpy Old Diesel Owners Club

He WAS in Pakistan...just not where we suspected.....I'm glad we finally got him....and I will gladly give Obama a thumbs up for giving the order to go in after him too, sovereign nation or not, when they finally tracked him down.
I believe in rendition of terrorists.

__________________
Proud owner of ....
1971 280SE W108
1979 300SD W116
1983 300D W123
1975 Ironhead Sportster chopper
1987 GMC 3/4 ton 4X4 Diesel
1989 Honda Civic (Heavily modified)
---------------------
Section 609 MVAC Certified
---------------------
"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche

Gosh I sure I hope I'm not touching a tar baby here.

The few times I have chosen to not encounter someone here is because they did not wish to engage in civil discourse, not because I did not wish to debate them.

And you know, when you are closer in age to 100 than you are to your own birth, people questioning your manhood doesn't do much anymore. I mean, what are we suppose to do, compare sperm count?

I actually am in close agreement with a number (not all) of your perspectives but am uncomfortable with your manner.

There have been three times this morning I thought about putting you on my very short list but kept on backing away.

Oh well. On to the next round.

As you undoubtedly know there has been this continual decrease in expectations that society has had of the individual citizen in the past 50 years.

And as any parent or teacher knows, if you don't expect much from them, that's what you'll get.

So we pretty much have the electorate that have sought to create by our lowered expectations.

I took offense to two of my posts being singled out and not the large number of others who said and did far worse.

I respect people that might not agree with me...but don't have to resort to name calling etc.....but I will sling mud back if someone slings it at me first.

And people that get all their information from the TV, the newspaper or the radio contrary to their opinion are misinformed. And they have zero idea how often or how much.....yet they are quick with the name calling.

DO the work I've done the last 30 years and the only thing you see on the news you don't question is the weather....and the cooking segments. Everything else amounts to being what they want you to hear....not necessarily exactly what happened as they claimed.

Because of what you see, overhear or sometimes are actually at before the reporters put their spin on it, You see this bias.

I obviously can't repeat most things....but I can give an example of a shooting that happened in Baltimore on the inner harbor before it was developed.in the early 80's...I saw the guys fight...I watched the guy pull out a colt 45 and shoot the guy in the chest, I was 20 feet away at the time watched the whole thing..... I saw the cops come I saw them take the guy away in the ambulance....I saw the reaction of the people in the area.


I also saw EVERY tv station in the DC area report on it....NONE got it right....most never even named the right motorcycle clubs....only one even got ONE club name right...apparently if you believed the news there was a riot....which was news to everyone there.....three guys having a fight doesn't constitute a riot. Never mind the fact the police showed up 20 minutes after the ambulance left.....and an hour and a half later....there were no reporters or tv crews in the area.. YET. The cops were long gone when they finally got there

That was my first taste of how often the news isn't what happened in reality.



And they ALL put a spin on it.... unbiased reporter is another oxymoron.

__________________
Proud owner of ....
1971 280SE W108
1979 300SD W116
1983 300D W123
1975 Ironhead Sportster chopper
1987 GMC 3/4 ton 4X4 Diesel
1989 Honda Civic (Heavily modified)
---------------------
Section 609 MVAC Certified
---------------------
"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche

No argument about the history, however to ignore the progress since then is the "extreme" position being put forth.

Is there really some virtue in placing economic limitations and roadblocks to voting in a representative democracy? More on point, does economic standing solve some directly related defect that warrants disenfranchisement? All citizens have "skin in the game" when it comes to their government.

I would qualify that by saying all tax paying citizens have skin in the game. Just showing up doesn't count for much.

__________________
1985 380SE Blue/Blue - 230,000 miles
2012 Subaru Forester 5-speed
2005 Toyota Sienna
2004 Chrysler Sebring convertible
1999 Toyota Tacoma

I think you are assuming the truth of the point rather than demonstrating it. One could reasonably ask, " Has this really been progress?"
Is having a greater % of the populace engaged in "the franchise" an improvement? How would you demonstrate that thesis?
How does any of this relate to Tocqueville's comment about the American system will last only until the populace begins to vote themselves monies from the public treasury?

Not taking a side; just asking questions.

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1982 300SD " Wotan" ..On the road as of Jan 8, 2007 with Historic Tags

You ignored the prescription drug act, which is costing us waayy more than Libya.
The action in Libya is a NATO action, and we are a small part of it.
If you're going to start supposing, does that make you a suppository?