I certainly think everyone has a right to believe whatever they want and official repression of ideas is not good. However, the kind of culture we have is based on critical, public analysis of knowledge. People put ideas out into the public sphere and other people analyze and criticize them. If culture were to revert to claims to authority in either people, institutions or texts, the world as we know it would change radically and for the worse in my opinion.
I also agree with much of what W.K. Clifford wrote at the end of the 19th century about the ethics of belief. We have an epistemological duty to ourselves and society to critically examine our beliefs.

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1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13

That's a dream world you have there, Kerry. This nation was historically not a country of reflective, deep thinkers. It takes a leisure class to do that and there was no leisure class of consequence until the 20th century. Sure, there have been wealthy people and bright people since the beginning. But not of sufficient size to amount to anything.

De Tocqueville said as much in his little visit, decrying the general lack of education and poor thinking skills of the populace and even the elected officials. This general lack of consequential thinkers is also noted by the education reformers of the early 20th century.

If there was ever a golden age of open-minded free thinking in this country, it's now. I remember back to the late 1950's and there was very little diversity of thought. Probably because I grew up in an abnormal social setting -- military bases -- where black children went to the same school as white children. The upheavel fo the '60's and '70's was responsible for the introduction of a lot of new ideas and perspectives taht were radical as hell back then. We'd laugh now. except the whole marijuana thing. I'm still surprised it is illegal. Damn!

You may learn more about their reports by googling.

I think anything else I say would be a repetition of prior remarks or concepts.

Personally I hold world-views derived from Faith and reason. Where they conflict I ponder, think, research, ask others, pray, read the Bible and ask my Father to guide me.

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I wasn't intending to describe this country. I think I was probably describing the Enlightenment and elite scientific/critical culture beginning maybe in the 17th century. The modern west so to speak.
Of course, I've been heavily influenced by a long educational experience in applying those ideas to religion by both believers and unbelievers.

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1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13

I've heard lots of those reports in person over the years.

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1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13

Even before I became a believer, when I saw myself as both a rationalist and a pragmatist I would find your statement inaccurate.

People are highly irrational, do not want to have reasoned discourse and do not make decisions in that manner.

They never have and they never will. In fact they are not capable of such.

Appeal to that approach is either a rhetorical device for the debater to win their argument or the presenter is unaware of their own self-deception.

Further I make no request that any one votes, acts, performs in a certain manner because of my beliefs. If asked I give the best answers I can. I turn to Biblical authority to find my identity. I make no requirement that others do so.

I am one of the most analytical, rational, mental-oriented persons I know. There are thousands of people from the past 40+ years who would concur. I spent most of my life begging people to think clearly. I still do.

Everyone has non-rational components that are fundamental to their identity and behavior. Humans cannot exist without them.

In many ways my distaste for the current of intellectual thought from Rousseau forward is its intellectual dishonesty, not that is threatens my Faith.

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I don't doubt that.

I don't doubt your doubt.

I'm saying an intelligent, functional, as-a-matter-of-fact desirable member of society may hold to my views.

I'm also saying (at least from the perspective of the world) an equally intelligent, functional, as-a-matter-of-fact desirable member of society may hold to your views.

Jesus, as you know, said My Kingdom is not of this world. A believer resides here but is only visiting. Christ shows us how to do this. It is outside, at least partially the realm of the rational mind.

If only examined with the rational mind then essential aspects of the believer's walk and identity will not and cannot be known.

I truly do not know what else I can say.

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I never wrote anywhere that people in general were highly rational and analytical. I wrote that the culture that we lived in was based on those values. There's a big difference between those two things. It's similar to the view that humans are not naturally monogamous but the culture that we live in has until recently been based on monogamy.
I also never said that humans had no non-rational components. In fact, I wrote up a long post in reply to a similar statement you made a few days ago, explaining that I'm not a rationalist.
The question of reason and unreason in my view is similar to the question of monogamy or not. Regardless of our natural propensities are we better served by emphasizing reason, (even in religion) or not and minimizing unreason. I understand there are lots of people like Kierkegaard who are strongly in favor of emphasizing the unreason of religion. I disagree with them.

And whether you personally are interested in imposing biblical authority on other people is relevant to your views, there certainly are millions of Christian believers in the USA who want to do that. A brief account of that movement can be found here:

http://www.alternet.org/teaparty/151960/michele_bachmann_was_inspired_by_my_dad_and_his_christian_reconstructionist_friends_--_here%27s_why_that%27s_terrifying/?page=1

Not sure if you're familar with Christian Reconstructionism or Dominionism and its cultural goals, but they are certainly repressive from my point of view, especially to gay people.

__________________
1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13

Any organization or government requires a set of rules to ensure uniformity of operation and to maintain at least a semblance of order. America’s Constitution is the set of rules that preserve order and guarantee consistency of governance on the national and state level and without it, the country would break down into a feudal society of 50 separate tribes similar to the lawless areas of Afghanistan and Pakistan. Every politician in America swears an oath to “preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States,” and it does not matter if they are the president or the governor of Texas. The current governor of Texas, Rick Perry, swore to god to preserve, protect, and defend the U.S. and Texas Constitution but he has not fulfilled that oath and it calls into question his fitness to govern at any level. The people of Texas may worship a politician who breaks his oath of office, but it shows that as well as being a liar, he is a traitor to his country. Now, the oath-breaker has announced his candidacy to be president and along with Michele Bachmann, is the co-leader for worst person in America to lead this nation.

Perry has come out in opposition to at least two Constitutional amendments and called them mistakes even though both were legally passed. Mr. Perry objects to 17th Amendment that allows citizens to vote for senators instead of being appointed by a state’s legislature. Whether Perry does not trust Americans to choose their representatives, or believes it is better for politicians to choose senators is not important; it is his lack of support for the Constitution that is extremely problematic. Perry said that the 17th Amendment was part of a “fit of populist rage” to change the way senators were elected.

He also claimed the 16th Amendment is wrong because “the American people mistakenly empowered the federal government by giving it an unlimited source of income.” All conservatives hate taxation, but they love their military and with income tax that accounts for 45% of the nation’s income, it is questionable where the funds would come from to support the military much less the federal government without revenue. Perry also said Social Security and Medicare are unconstitutional even though both of those programs are funded by working Americans for retirement and healthcare in their old age. He has proposed that Texas be allowed to opt out of Social Security and Medicare programs that would deprive Texas workers of their retirement they paid into their entire working lives and it is a wonder the citizens of Texas don’t impeach him for attempted robbery.

The problem with politicians like Perry who do not support the Constitution is that in repeal frenzy, they will change the very nature of our country if given the opportunity. If Perry does not like the Constitution, why does he support a Constitutional Amendment to ban gay marriage? It is because he is driven by his religious extremism that prefers the bible as the law of the land instead of the Constitution. Perry supported Texas’ anti-sodomy laws and when the Supreme Court struck down the law in 2003, he said the law was “appropriate” and the decision was the “result of nine oligarchs in robes.” To show his blatant disregard for the law and the court’s ruling, he supported the Texas legislature when they refused to remove the law from its books.

There is an incredible danger with any candidate who opposes the Constitution, but especially when the candidate or politician is a devout evangelical maniac like Perry. There are speakers travelling around the country proposing the notion that the first amendment does not really prohibit the establishment of a state religion and Perry is a subscriber to the wildly popular idea that America is a Christian nation. In fact, in Texas, the school textbook committee has manipulated historical facts to deny the 1st Amendment’s prohibition on a state religion in spite of the text in the document. If a governor like Perry does not approve of the Constitution he should resign, but he has proffered a different scenario that is historically disastrous.

Perry floated the idea that if the federal government does not stop enforcing federal laws like collection of income tax, environmental protections, or implementation of the health law, then Texas should secede from the Union. Whether Perry is intelligent enough to recall the history of the Civil War or not is questionable, but insinuating a state can just leave is treason. Over 148 years ago, the nation fought its bloodiest conflict that claimed the lives of over 500,000 Americans because Southern states failed to support the Constitution. Now that Perry has announced he is officially seeking the nomination for president, the public deserves to know that he will not support or preserve the Constitution in its present form.

Rick Perry is a liar and a traitor who cannot be trusted to run a fast-food restaurant much less the state of Texas or the country and it is not only his abhorrence of the Constitution that should concern every citizen in America. His record in Texas is anything but stellar and he has been in the middle of every outrage in that poor, misguided state. Asking Texans to pray for rain and to solve the nation’s economic problems is the least of his dysfunction. In Texas 37% of workers earn at or below the minimum wage, and Perry has personally removed handicapped and disadvantaged children from the S-CHIP program so he could funnel the money to other programs favorable to his partners and donors. He deliberately allowed an innocent man to be executed, and Texas has the highest rate of uninsured people in the nation.

To hear Perry tell the story, his leadership in Texas has made the state a paradise, but it is the biggest polluter and has the highest carbon dioxide emissions in the nation. He signed into law, as emergency legislation, the requirement that women undergo vaginal probing before getting an abortion (even in the case of rape); the law forced physicians to provide an image of the fetus and make the woman listen to the sound of its heartbeat. There are myriad outrages Perry has been a party to in Texas, and as time goes on, Americans will get a taste of what the man anointed by god to be president has wrought on his state. He cannot be allowed to wreak havoc on the entire country, but the main-stream-media will hardly be purveyors of truth and transparency in exposing a maniac like Perry.

The notion of a President Perry should frighten the life out of every thinking American for myriad reasons, but two that stand out are his religious inclinations and his hatred for our country’s Constitution. The conservative-Christian cult will cheer his entrance into the race because they are looking for a preacher-in-chief who will change the secular government into a theocracy and abolish taxes completely. The amount of support Perry will garner is further proof that America is devolving into a second-rate nation of malcontents and religious fanatics that will, in a short span of time, destroy the freedoms guaranteed in the Constitution and put a majority of the population in poverty. However, for a man like Perry who lied when he swore to his god to preserve, protect and defend the Constitution, sending millions of Americans into poverty and denying them their Constitutional freedoms is just the beginning of a very dark time in America’s history.

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^^^^ Isn't it an infractionable offense to directly quote something ( in entirety) unless you make it a link or reference the original author? Somehow I doubt that you came up with these talking points all by yourself! Great job though- you have all the left wing buzz words covered: abortion, enviroment, handicapped, disadvantaged, children, and the holy grail of all liberal hatespeech- Christian!!!! I'm sure all your fellow travelers will use your inspirational plagarism to achieve socialist nirvana. Too bad ( and thank God)nobody else is swayed by your Soros sponsored agenda. BTW who is the original author? http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/showthread.php?t=295613

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1984 300TD 1981 240D

Too bad for all the Jesus freaks because he's going to lose. Better luck next time. Why can't the republican's come up with any sane politicians?

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CENSORED due to not family friendly words

Same reason the Dems cant. None of the sane ones want the job.

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Sent from an agnostic abacus

2014 C250 21,XXX my new DD ** 2013 GLK 350 18,000 Wife's new DD**

- With out god, life is everything.
- God is an ever receding pocket of scientific ignorance that's getting smaller and smaller as time moves on..." Neil DeGrasse Tyson
- You can pray for me, I'll think for you.
- When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.

10fords

I got that off a link on reddit.com

please tell me why you christians would tell a an innocent child that they are born with "original sin"?

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"The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread."

You make many good points and I would enjoy spending hours going back and forth, though doing so via OD isn't the same as sitting around a fire on a cold evening.

Many people take the easy way out. When I see a 'timeline' at church showing the birth of all Adam and Eve at 4004 BC or hear a youngster talk about humans and dinosaurs walking side-by-side I cringe. How sad.

Yet I go into secular society and see many follies propagated that strike me as easy-ways-out, bypassing any reflection or thought, etc.

I'm sure I have values derived from my Faith that conflict with yours. Ultimately I doubt that I am any more irrational than you and a good deal more rational than most.

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The thread started with the video of the speaker.

Recognizing how foreign this is to most I offered context.

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