Doctors charged with murder - Page 11 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

The Clk Man · #**151** 01-03-2012, 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

Why not? If it is not alive, where is the question. If you want to claim it is a living human being, don't you think you should use the same tests? You cannot claim it is a living human being without using the very same tests that determines what a living human being is. If you killed my dog, can I charge you for killing a human being? Probably not since it doesn't qualify. Other charges, yes.

Faulty logic again aklim?

amosfella · #**152** 01-03-2012, 08:07 PM

Having been the confidant of 8 girls who have had abortions, my experience is consistent with what CLK said. All admitted feeling regret to the point of depression and all but one got clinical treatment for depression... Whether or not it's lifelong, I don't know. All of them told me that if they knew it would have felt like that, they wouldn't have gotten the abortion...All but one case I found out about after... There was a case I knew it was going to happen, but couldn't change the girl's mind. 2 years later, said girl still gets bouts of regret, and depression, and will still talk about wanting her baby back when she get's really drunk...
I asked every girl about if they'd be telling their husbands or BFs about the feelings from the abortion... All said that hell would freeze over first for a million years... another one said that the'd rather be tied to a bed of nails and raped all day every day for the next 10 years... (kinda graphic, but throws out the rape is a fate worse than death philosophy, among other experiments)...
However, I do believe that when a soul is granted to a fetus, it has life... I believe that happens at conception... Those who doubt the existence of a soul should look at the papers from docs at the concentration camps in Germany where they weighed people as they were dying, and found out that when they died, the body consistently weighed about 27 grams less. If I remember the study right, they could completely reanimate the body, but those 27 grams didn't come back...

Botnst · #**153** 01-03-2012, 08:09 PM

Why not show him where you believe his logic is faulty? Just saying it doesn't make it so.

Now I'll take a position in argument closer to his side.

I believe that it is okay for the mother & attending delivery person to make a decision about whether a baby should be allowed to continue to live. Maybe a few hours post delivery. After that period then society has an increasing interest.

The Clk Man · #**154** 01-03-2012, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by amosfella

Having been the confidant of 8 girls who have had abortions, my experience is consistent with what CLK said. All admitted feeling regret to the point of depression and all but one got clinical treatment for depression... Whether or not it's lifelong, I don't know. All of them told me that if they knew it would have felt like that, they wouldn't have gotten the abortion...All but one case I found out about after... There was a case I knew it was going to happen, but couldn't change the girl's mind. 2 years later, said girl still gets bouts of regret, and depression, and will still talk about wanting her baby back when she get's really drunk...
I asked every girl about if they'd be telling their husbands or BFs about the feelings from the abortion... All said that hell would freeze over first for a million years... another one said that the'd rather be tied to a bed of nails and raped all day every day for the next 10 years... (kinda graphic, but throws out the rape is a fate worse than death philosophy, among other experiments)...
However, I do believe that when a soul is granted to a fetus, it has life... I believe that happens at conception... Those who doubt the existence of a soul should look at the papers from docs at the concentration camps in Germany where they weighed people as they were dying, and found out that when they died, the body consistently weighed about 27 grams less. If I remember the study right, they could completely reanimate the body, but those 27 grams didn't come back...

Well stated Sir.

Botnst · #**155** 01-03-2012, 08:11 PM

I'm thinking its probably BS. Got any credible links?

davidmash · #**156** 01-03-2012, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

Are you sentient when you are asleep?

According to this definition I would say yes.

sen·tient
sentient pronunciation [sen-shuhnt]
adjective
1.
having the power of perception by the senses; conscious.
2.
characterized by sensation and consciousness.

davidmash · #**157** 01-03-2012, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by amosfella

Having been the confidant of 8 girls who have had abortions, my experience is consistent with what CLK said. All admitted feeling regret to the point of depression and all but one got clinical treatment for depression... Whether or not it's lifelong, I don't know. All of them told me that if they knew it would have felt like that, they wouldn't have gotten the abortion...All but one case I found out about after... There was a case I knew it was going to happen, but couldn't change the girl's mind. 2 years later, said girl still gets bouts of regret, and depression, and will still talk about wanting her baby back when she get's really drunk...
I asked every girl about if they'd be telling their husbands or BFs about the feelings from the abortion... All said that hell would freeze over first for a million years... another one said that the'd rather be tied to a bed of nails and raped all day every day for the next 10 years... (kinda graphic, but throws out the rape is a fate worse than death philosophy, among other experiments)...
However, I do believe that when a soul is granted to a fetus, it has life... I believe that happens at conception... Those who doubt the existence of a soul should look at the papers from docs at the concentration camps in Germany where they weighed people as they were dying, and found out that when they died, the body consistently weighed about 27 grams less. If I remember the study right, they could completely reanimate the body, but those 27 grams didn't come back...

Curious. What was the religious back ground/up bringing of the girls?

Botnst · #**158** 01-03-2012, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidmash

According to this definition I would say yes.

sen·tient
sentient pronunciation [sen-shuhnt]
adjective
1. having the power of perception by the senses; conscious.
2. characterized by sensation and consciousness.

I agree that those maybe construed as sentient responses which also bestows sentience on a host of animals. Wouldn't you suppose that human sentience might be different from an intelligent non-human creature or would you suggest that humans are part of a spectrum of sentient expression?

davidmash · #**159** 01-03-2012, 08:26 PM

There are aspects but that that would differentiate from 'alive' verses 'not alive'

Botnst · #**160** 01-03-2012, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidmash

There are aspects but that that would differentiate from 'alive' verses 'not alive'

I'm not sure what you mean so if I get it wrong, back me up.

Sentience may or may not have anything to do with life. I mean, we cannot test for sentience in non-corporeal presences but anecdotally it seems that djinn, angels, god(s), etc apparently have sentience but not a presence in the flesh. Also, we have spirits of the dead that haunt or pay unexpected visits. These manifestations do not lend themselves to scientific study so we are sort of left to shrug our shoulders and move along.

But then we have living creatures of all sorts that seem to have varying degrees of what we call sentience. Euglenoids respond to light and temperature -- external stimuli. So do most politicians if we believe news reports. But there usually appears to be some sort of qualitative difference between lower life forms and most politicians.

So I propose that there is a spectrum to sentience, from the simplest test of reaction to eternal stimuli on one end to the ability to score high on a Wexford IQ test.

Is there also a spectrum for life? Or is life binary?

MTI · #**161** 01-03-2012, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by amosfella

Having been the confidant of 8 girls who have had abortions, my experience is consistent with what CLK said. All admitted feeling regret to the point of depression and all but one got clinical treatment for depression...

88% (7 of 8) is a bit off from the claim.

Quote:

However, I do believe that when a soul is granted to a fetus, it has life... I believe that happens at conception... Those who doubt the existence of a soul should look at the papers from docs at the concentration camps in Germany where they weighed people as they were dying, and found out that when they died, the body consistently weighed about 27 grams less. If I remember the study right, they could completely reanimate the body, but those 27 grams didn't come back...

Okay, I see you've phrased it as beliefs, whereas the issue was "fact" or 'truth" so I believe your personal belief and opinion is earnest.

As for the weight of "souls" . . . and "completely reanimate" I think you'll agree that there's likely to be disagreement about those findings.

davidmash · #**162** 01-03-2012, 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

I'm not sure what you mean so if I get it wrong, back me up.

Sentience may or may not have anything to do with life. I mean, we cannot test for sentience in non-corporeal presences but anecdotally it seems that djinn, angels, god(s), etc apparently have sentience but not a presence in the flesh. Also, we have spirits of the dead that haunt or pay unexpected visits. These manifestations do not lend themselves to scientific study so we are sort of left to shrug our shoulders and move along.

But then we have living creatures of all sorts that seem to have varying degrees of what we call sentience. Euglenoids respond to light and temperature -- external stimuli. So do most politicians if we believe news reports. But there usually appears to be some sort of qualitative difference between lower life forms and most politicians.

So I propose that there is a spectrum to sentience, from the simplest test of reaction to eternal stimuli on one end to the ability to score high on a Wexford IQ test.

Is there also a spectrum for life? Or is life binary?

The Euglenoids are probably reacting due to instinct not sentient but just a guess as Im not a scientist.

I am sure there are going to be gray areas. Shivo was brain dead tot he best of our knowledge. No reaction to any out side stimuli. I am sure there are situations that are not as clear cut. When a fetus goes from a blob of cells to something I/you would consider 'alive' is I am sure up for debate as well.

I do not know if there is a spectrum for life. I think it's either you are or your not in terms of humans. The spectrum is where that line is. Perhaps it is a moving target and not fixed.

Does any of this make sense?

Botnst · #**163** 01-03-2012, 09:17 PM

It makes sense, David. It is an incredibly difficult topic that has tied sentient humans in knots for as long as history. People who have simple answers are to be envied in some degree.

I tend to think of life as binary -- on or off, no half-measures. But I have a very creepy feeling that medical science will soon prove my conjecture is wrong. For instance, I read an article recently which suggested that biologists will soon be able to produce animal flesh for harvesting without bothering to grow a whole organism. Does that pound of ground round without a body have the same veterinary considerations as 'animals'? It's gonna get a lot weirder in our lifetime than we are prepared to deal with.

I think the whole deal with sentience is at least as tricky. You an I agree that reaction to stimuli at the base instinctual level is pretty damned primitive life. We probably also agree that we should treat apes with almost the same consideration as we have for Homo sapiens. Where do the severely mentally retarded or insane humans fit on that scale of apes-to-man? Or how much tissue can we carve from the human being before he is no longer human but still sentient? Or what do we do when we have sentient computers -- maybe in our lifetime?

It's gonna be spooky, weird, and tragic, IMO.

amosfella · #**164** 01-03-2012, 09:26 PM

David, iirc, 2 were christian, 1 athiest, and the rest would be best termed as agnostic...
MTI, the 8th showed signs of being depressed, but because of her background was too afraid to get treatment... last time I talked with her, she said she should get treatment, but wouldn't...
As for the belief vs fact, in this case, I don't think that there will ever be scientific proof in my lifetime, so, in the end, the facts argued will only be beliefs, and no one will be satisfied till their opinion in whole in enforced on everyone... As for the 27 grams, there may be dispute, but I don't recall any repetition of this experiment either, so arguing whether it's faulty or not is a moot point in my opinion...
Please note, I only speak for myself and my experience/what I have been told from others, not everyone.
However, I think the abortion debate is part of a bigger picture that few are seeing. I see it as a step to cheapening human life, so that in the end, the government can kill those it considers undesirable... What is the latest debate on death?? Whether or not people have a right to assisted suicide... I see that as part of the same plan, and therefore the same issue....

Botnst · #**165** 01-03-2012, 09:28 PM

"However, I think the abortion debate is part of a bigger picture that few are seeing. I see it as a step to cheapening human life, so that in the end, the government can kill those it considers undesirable... What is the latest debate on death?? Whether or not people have a right to assisted suicide... I see that as part of the same plan, and therefore the same issue...."

That's a key point, no question. When the state determines what life is worth living then the state truly controls your body -- you are a convenience for the state. Or not.

So why should the state determine when a woman aborts?