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  #121  
Old 11-06-2012, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by WDBCB20 View Post
Humanism "the secular ideology that espouses reason, ethics, and justice, while specifically rejecting supernatural and religious ideas as a basis of morality and decision-making" is a religion?

This is precisely what I meant by feeling entitled to your own facts: in this case making up your own definition for a term, a definition that runs diametrically counter to its true meaning.


.

How about substituting "beliefs" for "religion?"

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  #122  
Old 11-06-2012, 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by MS Fowler View Post
At the most basic level you either believe that God is, or that God is not.
Agnostics would not give you a firm answer as you suggest.
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  #123  
Old 11-06-2012, 02:22 PM
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Yes and no.
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  #124  
Old 11-06-2012, 05:46 PM
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Agnostics would not give you a firm answer as you suggest.
I did not mean to slight the agnostics among us. The answer that maybe God is, is also appropriate.
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  #125  
Old 11-06-2012, 05:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WDBCB20 View Post
Humanism "the secular ideology that espouses reason, ethics, and justice, while specifically rejecting supernatural and religious ideas as a basis of morality and decision-making" is a religion?

This is precisely what I meant by feeling entitled to your own facts: in this case making up your own definition for a term, a definition that runs diametrically counter to its true meaning.


.
You are evidently using the term "religion" in a very restrictive sense, meaning an organized religion. I was using it in the much broader sense of beliefs. No deity required. Nothing supernatural -- just "beliefs" that are not subject to rational proof or verification.
You may reject the supernatural, but that is still a "belief". You cannot "prove" that the supernatural does not exist. You may live your life in the light of your belief, but it remains, merely, a belief.
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  #126  
Old 11-06-2012, 05:54 PM
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Originally Posted by MS Fowler View Post
You are evidently using the term "religion" in a very restrictive sense, meaning an organized religion. I was using it in the much broader sense of beliefs. No deity required. Nothing supernatural -- just "beliefs" that are not subject to rational proof or verification.
You may reject the supernatural, but that is still a "belief". You cannot "prove" that the supernatural does not exist. You may live your life in the light of your belief, but it remains, merely, a belief.
Good thing martureo isn't here....
He would be flipping out about these changing definitions....
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  #127  
Old 11-06-2012, 06:09 PM
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Originally Posted by MS Fowler View Post
You are evidently using the term "religion" in a very restrictive sense, meaning an organized religion. I was using it in the much broader sense of beliefs. No deity required. Nothing supernatural -- just "beliefs" that are not subject to rational proof or verification.
You may reject the supernatural, but that is still a "belief". You cannot "prove" that the supernatural does not exist. You may live your life in the light of your belief, but it remains, merely, a belief.
belief =/= faith =/= religion.
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  #128  
Old 11-06-2012, 06:36 PM
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belief =/= faith =/= religion.
An assertion upon which we disagree, respectfully.
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  #129  
Old 11-06-2012, 06:48 PM
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Originally Posted by MS Fowler View Post
You are evidently using the term "religion" in a very restrictive sense, meaning an organized religion. I was using it in the much broader sense of beliefs. No deity required. Nothing supernatural -- just "beliefs" that are not subject to rational proof or verification.
You may reject the supernatural, but that is still a "belief". You cannot "prove" that the supernatural does not exist. You may live your life in the light of your belief, but it remains, merely, a belief.
You cannot prove that Russell's Teapot does not exist.

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  #130  
Old 11-06-2012, 06:53 PM
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An excellent review of the relationships between faith, reason and superstition, can be found here: Pope John Paul II: Faith and reason .

One may not wish to read a religionist perspective, but to ignore it is to hobble on one leg not recognizing why one plods so.
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  #131  
Old 11-06-2012, 08:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Botnst View Post
An excellent review of the relationships between faith, reason and superstition, can be found here: Pope John Paul II: Faith and reason .

One may not wish to read a religionist perspective, but to ignore it is to hobble on one leg not recognizing why one plods so.
Mr. Wojtyła's tsunami of balderdash can safely be ignored without any perceptible loss. H.L. Mencken describes this sort of thing as "the effort to explain the unknowable in terms of the not worth knowing" What is worth knowing, however, is that according to the Vatican guidelines on exorcism issued in 1999, “the person who claims to be possessed must be evaluated by doctors to rule out a mental or physical illness.”
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  #132  
Old 11-06-2012, 08:49 PM
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Originally Posted by WDBCB20 View Post
Mr. Wojtyła's tsunami of balderdash can safely be ignored without any perceptible loss. H.L. Mencken describes this sort of thing as "the effort to explain the unknowable in terms of the not worth knowing" What is worth knowing, however, is that according to the Vatican guidelines on exorcism issued in 1999, “the person who claims to be possessed must be evaluated by doctors to rule out a mental or physical illness.”
Thank you for your typically deep analysis.
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  #133  
Old 11-06-2012, 10:49 PM
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Thank you for your typically deep analysis.
Very superficial actually, commensurate with the subject matter. Those who need more to be reminded that the Roman Catholic Church with its centuries of charlatanry has little or no credibility on any subject are simply not familiar with the church's history of violent depraved criminality, suppression of truth and foisting of falsehoods.
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  #134  
Old 11-06-2012, 10:58 PM
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Originally Posted by MS Fowler View Post
illustration does not apply.
We are talking about beliefs. You have a set of beliefs that govern your actions. It may not be any organized religion, but you do believe in something. At the most basic level you either believe that God is, or that God is not.
My 'belief' is based on scientific knowledge which is subject to change or revision with new discoveries. In what universe is that in any way similar to religious beliefs?
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  #135  
Old 11-07-2012, 04:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Botnst View Post
So it's the magnitude, not the intent.
A swing and a miss. The intent in Iraq was for a large role.

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