Boston lock down... - Page 3 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

elchivito · #31 04-22-2013, 09:19 AM

I'm still betting this is largely homegrown and mainly the work of the disaffected older brother. He might have found a focus for his disaffection when he visited Chechnya, but I just have a feeling there is no grand conspiracy here.

For the record, they didn't rob the 7-11.

While the military lockdown of the entire town is troubling, what would have been an alternative strategy?

layback40 · #32 04-22-2013, 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

Clearly you are correct, the circumstances truly guide the response.

Those of us who want due process of law are taking a terrible risk with people's lives -- if there are accomplices motivated to carry-on.

It's a horrible balancing act between liberty and security. It isn't well-marked. It doesn't even stay where you last saw it.

I could easily, easily imagine myself torturing somebody whose information held the power of life and death over my family.

On the flip side, I hate the precedent of government suspending the rules that ensure liberty. In the longer run this is more terrible than a bomb.

Governments will expand power at every opportunity, on every front. The sordid history of civilization clearly indicates that governments do not often improve with age. Sometimes they briefly improve with revolution. But not always.

This is a very wise & well thought out post, as is the case of many of your posts Bot.
You often display an appropriate level of thought before posting your comments.

t walgamuth · #33 04-22-2013, 10:05 AM

I was a little startled by the lockdown but it seemed alright to me in the end.

TimFreeh · #34 04-22-2013, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elchivito

......While the military lockdown of the entire town is troubling, what would have been an alternative strategy?

Can't even think of an alternative?

I'd have gone with the strategy that ended the whole affair. Instead of asking people to draw the curtains, hide under the bed and thank god they live in a state that has extensive gun control laws you get the word out that there are armed dangerous terrorists on the loose and ask anyone that sees anything to respond.

And I'd let the citizen choose how they wanted to respond, not wait for the government to tell them what to do next.

link · #35 04-22-2013, 10:23 AM

I read someplace that after 9-11 that most or all major city governments devised a means of locking down cities, but this is the first I’ve heard of it being done. This practice is offensive in the extreme and is an outrageous over-reach.

With this kind of thing finding its roots in law, the next step is requiring suitable paperwork to travel. Of course that step will be done by transponder rather than manned checkpoint.

I have no doubt the country will look more like the USSR than the USA within a couple of decades. All that’s needed are a few more cameras and of course LEOs to monitor them.

Many thought the Patriot Act was the end of the Bill of Rights. Clearly it was and is only the beginning of the end.

Air&Road · #36 04-22-2013, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by link

I read someplace that after 9-11 that most or all major city governments devised a means of locking down cities, but this is the first I’ve heard of it being done. This practice is offensive in the extreme and is an outrageous over-reach.

With this kind of thing finding its roots in law, the next step is requiring suitable paperwork to travel. Of course that step will be done by transponder rather than manned checkpoint.

I have no doubt the country will look more like the USSR than the USA within a couple of decades. All that’s needed are a few more cameras and of course LEOs to monitor them.

Many thought the Patriot Act was the end of the Bill of Rights. Clearly it was and is only the beginning of the end.

Unfortunately, this is all true IMHO. I have to admit that in the VERY beginning of the Patriot Act, I thought that circumstances warranted it to some degree. It didn't take me long to figure out the downside of it and change my opinion.

Every American should be OUTRAGED at the Martial Law that took effect in Boston. The Boston Strangler in the early sixties was probably a bigger danger to the public after the bombings and they didn't invoke Martial Law at that time.

If they had only shut down the immediate area of Watertown that was in danger, it would have been different, but shutting down an entire area of 4 million people? Unconscionable.

barry12345 · #37 04-22-2013, 10:43 AM

You cannot have your pie and eat it too. They have to be sure they aquire what intelligence they can. Drugs would be used rather than torture I suspect.

If they did not do so and something else happened this serious or worse as a proven result.. There would be hell to pay. For all practical purposes they were soldiers of a movement to attack America with a declared agenda. Not common criminals.

He cannot be allowed to hide behind legal systems and rights.This is probably nothing new and has been a standing arrangement for some time makes sense.

Technically if his citizenship is revoked he has no rights. What right did he have to participate in killing and damaging almost two hundred people? With implications it is part of a general movement in nature. Unfortunatly more information may have been gathered from his older brother but that option is gone.

If legal council is given before there is assurance the information is complete. It could set unhealthy precidents for the future. For all practical purposes they still were soldiers for a radical movement to attack America.No matter how inept they were.

As long as that information if any extracted is not part of a trial I see no issues in gathering it. They got a break catching one of them alive. To throw that away would be negligent in my opinion.

This is more of a war type situation than what the general population are used to. The differance if any is that the general population are the target. Economicaly these events are very expensive as well. If repedative they reduce a feeling of security for many. The financial cost of even attempting to deal with them is also through the roof since 9/11.

elchivito · #38 04-22-2013, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TimFreeh

Can't even think of an alternative?

Sure, I just posed the question as it seems everyone's OUTRAGED by the lockdown but not offering alternatives.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TimFreeh

...and ask anyone that sees anything to respond.
And I'd let the citizen choose how they wanted to respond, not wait for the government to tell them what to do next.

Yeah, and with Boston's not insubstantial Muslim community, what could possibly go wrong?

P.C. · #39 04-22-2013, 11:07 AM

I need a clearer definition as to the extent of this "lockdown". While I understand that taxi service and public transportation were impacted, what was to keep me from hopping into my car and driving around Boston at my leisure?

Air&Road · #40 04-22-2013, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elchivito

Sure, I just posed the question as it seems everyone's OUTRAGED by the lockdown but not offering alternatives.

Yeah, and with Boston's not insubstantial Muslim community, what could possibly go wrong?

I offered a middle of the road alternative; lock down the immediate area of Watertown where they suspected he was located as opposed to the entire 4 million person metropolitan area. And that lock down should have been a media barrage warning and asking everyone to hunker down, NOT a martial law mandate.

Air&Road · #41 04-22-2013, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P.C.

I need a clearer definition as to the extent of this "lockdown". While I understand that taxi service and public transportation were impacted, what was to keep me from hopping into my car and driving around Boston at my leisure?

I would like to know more about it too Paul. I would also like to know if the lockdown meant that anyone violating it would be prosecuted, or if it was simply a request from the authorities. I think it was the former and not the latter.

Mölyapina · #42 04-22-2013, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerry

Not to mention the fact that the person who found the perp was a homeowner who violated the lockdown and went out to look in his boat, and not the cops.

Actually, he went out after the "stay-in-shelter" order was lifted and noticed that his boat cover was flapping in the wind.

kerry · #43 04-22-2013, 11:26 AM

In Boston, our bloated surveillance state didn’t work - Salon.com

kerry · #44 04-22-2013, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jooseppi Luna

Actually, he went out after the "stay-in-shelter" order was lifted and noticed that his boat cover was flapping in the wind.

Making an even stronger case against the lockdown. If he had gone out sooner he would have found the perp sooner.

Brian Carlton · #45 04-22-2013, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerry

In Boston, our bloated surveillance state didn’t work - Salon.com

Quote:

We now have a “War on Terror” that permeates every public news event and action. The immediate leap to the familiar “Terrorists In Our Midst” narrative is facilitated and amplified by a bovine mainstream media amped up by endless alerts issued by a Department of Homeland Security and two Presidential Administrations about insane foreigners here, there, and everywhere. In other words, what’s changed is the presence of a fear-mongering narrative of the War on Terror, along with the billions in expenditures that are used to justify it, that reframe a centuries old story about crime.

The events of the past week in Boston do not vindicate the rise of the Homeland Security bureaucracy and certainly do not vindicate the stripping of our liberties, the shutting down of a major city, or the instantiation of a police state. But they certainly affirm the future as it was perceived by Orwell.

Perfect.