I was going to clarify and say that his current position isn't heretical, but heterodox. One doesn't need to accept Paul to be a believer, but you've got to wonder where they're getting their information from.

But from a few more of his comments he's just very very confused.

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I STARTED PREACHING SCHOOL FOR ONE YEAR,READ SO MUCH AND STUDIED ON MY OWN.I can't see a all knowing God banishing women from camp because of their monthly cycle. It wasn't till the early 19 hundreds a period was termed as a cycle. Women pior to that were married often at 14 and stayed pregnant.

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I don't understand that comment at all. The Catholic church is about as anti-gay as institutions get yet there are many gay priests. Not only was Ted Haggard the leader of a very anti-gay group of Evangelicals, he also spoke out personally against gays. Being straight is not a requirement for being a member of an anti-gay organization. In fact, it appears that a fair number of gay men join anti-gay groups in an attempt to convince themselves that they're straight.

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The history of gender issues is dark and twisted by tradition but largely undocumented.

I agree with Kerry (putting words in his mouth) that being anti-gay is not the same thing as being heterosexual.

I would add that being in favor of equal treatment on gay issues is not the same as being homosexual.

I'm not trying to come across pedantic here, but do you remember where the Pharisees came from?

Their goal was to adhere to the Law so firmly that they created traditions stricter than the Mosaic law.

Homosexuality was condemned quite clearly and several times by God as an "abomination." The Tanniatic tradition at the time for hermaphroditic babies was to treat them all as boys. This was done to make sure that a man would never lie with another man.

Such traditions would make it impossible for Paul to be actively homosexual and even if he had such inclinations his training would have made them utterly disgusting to him.

To make the assertion that Paul was gay is to write him right out of his culture and position as a Pharisee.

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You've got some seriously odd ideas about the relationship between ideology and personal psychology. The fact that Paul might have thought that homosexuality was disgusting has no bearing on whether he himself was gay. I've known quite a number of guys who grew up in anti-homosexual traditions and who hated themselves because of it. In fact, Paul's own ideas about human sinfulness are better explained if he thought his own sexual inclinations were disgusting. The religious right has many self-hating gay men who live tortured lives as a result.

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x2 to kerry

None of this means that he WASN'T gay, anymore than anyone who might be a homosexual and denies it for fear of their position or personal prejudices is any less a homosexual.

You assert that because his training and position were anti gay and rigid in their observances, then of course he wasn't gay. This is contradicted by numerous instances of gay men being employed or active in anti gay positions.

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Ted Haggard was fixed. I read it on the internet so it must be true.

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I think it helps them to be in a position of authority to prey on others too. So they are not only trying to convince themselves but othwrs they are not. But if they want to they can use their influence that comes with the position to get a date.

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And we agree.

The problem I have is that this is an argument from silence. The only argument that could be made would be that Paul was a practicing or at least self-professed homosexual. And in light of his culture and profession that argument gets shot down pretty quickly.

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Good point.

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What does practicing or 'self-professing' whatever that means, have to do with being gay? I'm not aware of anyone who claims Paul was self-consciously and publicly a gay man.

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They would be the only evidence of him being gay.

Otherwise the assertion is an argument from silence. Got it?

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Nobody has ever made an argument from silence about Paul's gayness to my knowledge. The arguments I am familiar with are rooted in his attitudes towards himself, marriage, sexuality and women. Such attitudes are explained to some degree if he was a self-hating gay man.

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1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13

Exodus International closed it's doors last week and issued a kind of quasi-apology for what it had been doing. Founder (?) said he hadn't been completely honest about his continued attraction to men even though he was married and didn't engage in gay sex.

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1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13