Neighbors - Page 5 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

JB3 · #61 08-30-2018, 06:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squiggle Dog

Actually, what I am saying follows perfect logic. Don't cause harm if it's not necessary--and this is how I live my life. Defending oneself and keeping oneself alive are justifiable reasons to cause harm, because they are necessary to one's survival. If there is no necessity, don't cause harm.

What isn't logical is humans selecting which animals they love, and which ones they harm or eat, as can be seen by differences in culture--as well as harming and killing animals when it's not necessary.

Also, if I encountered a rat or mouse in my home, I would capture it and let it loose outside, well away from the house.

So its your lack of experience with vermin that gives you the lofty opinion that you would never harm one.

JB3 · #62 08-30-2018, 06:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squiggle Dog

You initially stated that dogs are carnivores. I corrected you by stating that they are actually omnivores. Then you responded by saying that I mean they are scavengers. True, an animal can be both a scavenger and a carnivore, but dogs are not carnivores--were it not so, they could not survive and thrive without meat.

You are right that many animals in the wild won't share my "sensibilities"--animals tend to lack the moral agency that we have as humans. Because we have moral agency, we are obligated to use it. Animals in the wild will also eat their young and do many other horrible things, but this doesn't mean that we should follow their example!

We may be near the top of the "food chain", but I don't think any of us would fare well if we were thrown into a cage with a lion, or into shark-infested water. Also, that's a good point--we have the ability to choose to eat meat, or abstain from it, so I would say, with us having that choice, why would we then still choose to cause harm to others?

Even if eating meat was a necessity for our ancestors (this is up for debate), it's not a necessity now, so why continue now? Can't we evolve and live more compassionately?

I hope I am not coming across too aggressively. I am passionate about this. My intention isn't to belittle or harass anyone, but I believe in standing up for those who are vulnerable and living to high standards of ethics, and this topic is a pretty big deal. Even if a person doesn't like animals, though, they should at least respect their right to live.

I can't stop animals in the wild from being killed by predators, but I can make sure that I personally don't cause harm to animals, as much as practical and possible, and I can enjoy good health while contributing less to the destruction of our planet than someone who consumes animal products.

I know some of us just don't care, but when many people see the harm they are causing to animals, themselves, and the environment, they wake up and want to do something about it. Veganism has risen 600% in the past three years in the United States. With the internet and social media, the public no longer has to be in the dark and fooled by propaganda perpetuated by the meat and dairy industries. Knowledge is power.

Some of us will probably never care about anyone but ourselves and those nearest us, but for those of us who do care, there are things to be done!

Issue number 1, dog is a carnivore, not an omnivore. Now they can survive on non meat diet, but that is not what they were evolved to eat. Teeth, digestive track, ect, they are not omnivores. That is something you have convinced yourself as part of your lifestyle so they can join you.

Issue number 2, you place yourself on a pedastal for your decision on diet, believing yourself more compassionate than others and more capable of empathy, and yet you apparently have limited experience with animals apart from domestic pets. From the position of general ignorance, i guess its possible to have such beliefs.

I assure you that your opinion on vermin in particular might change if you had to deal with them in any regular capacity. Your innocence is displayed with " oh i would just capture it and let it loose far away"

HuskyMan · #63 08-30-2018, 08:10 AM

I've had many long conversations with a friend who is a nutritionist. She's seen the situation involving vegans up close. Some people do very well going to an all vegan diet. She's seen others make the switch and ended up in the hospital and in some cases they DIED.

If you look at meat protein versus plant protein under a microscope, you will easily see that meat protein is FIVE times the size of plant protein.

vwnate1 · #64 08-30-2018, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HuskyMan

I have to wear ear plugs to block out the loud non-stop BARK BARK BARK just to go out and pull weeds or do any gardening in the back yard.

Tell you what, you come over to my house for morning coffee and conversation. We'll sit in the backyard so you can experience what it is like to not be able to not hear yourself think, much less carry on a civil conversation over coffee with the neighbor's dog's non-stop BARK BARK BARK BARK.

After a day or two, I believe you would recommend that I MOVE out of this place ASAP.

I'm game but you never even use your real name much less where you live .

vwnate1 · #65 08-30-2018, 11:49 AM

" I am passionate about this."

? Really, I hadn't noticed

.

I feed my pups only kibble occasionally augmented with left overs that include meat products .

My Sire is now 20 years old, the longest living pup I've ever had . most expire in their sleep after 17 ~ 18 healthy happy, vigorous years of running 'round, barking and crapping all over my yard .(plus of course, belly rubs on demand ~ they have me well trained) .

L.A.'s Animal Control used to euthanize unwanted animals (mostly dogs) by putting them into sealed cages and vacuuming out all the air ~ surely a horrible way to die .

Then they'd render the carcass' and seal the liquid remains into 55 gallon drums, we who worked for the City jokingly called this residue "dog in a drum" and I recall it was sold as fertilizer base . it was pretty nasty stuff .

I *think* they've managed to become a no kill shelter but it's really, really difficult considering how many animals get taken in .

This is an interesting thread, as I age out I eat ever more veggies and fruits but I have no qualms about eating animals nor their by products .

More young children should be taken early on to the slaughter house so they can see where their dinner comes from, in my day they were shot then rendered using chain saws, hack saws, axes and machetes ~ horrifying to some, just work for me as the animals weren't ever treated cruelly on the farms I worked on or visited and they were killed instantly .

All this is making me think of having an early lunch of liver with bacon and onions ~ for those who don't know, the liver filters the blood so eating tasty liver is like eating old oil filters from your Mercedes but -far- tastier .

Squiggle Dog · #66 08-30-2018, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JB3

So its your lack of experience with vermin that gives you the lofty opinion that you would never harm one.

I had a mouse in the house once in Washington (I've not seen mice here in Arizona). I set up something like a bucket on the floor, with some sort of a plank resting on the counter above it with food on it. I left it there overnight and heard a "clunk", so I went down to inspect it. There was a mouse inside, so I took the bucket out back to the easement which was full of overgrown blackberry bushes and let the mouse out back there.

Right, I would never harm one if it wasn't necessary. I would do everything I could to avoid killing one. My lack of experience has nothing to do with it.

Squiggle Dog · #67 08-30-2018, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JB3

Issue number 1, dog is a carnivore, not an omnivore. Now they can survive on non meat diet, but that is not what they were evolved to eat. Teeth, digestive track, ect, they are not omnivores. That is something you have convinced yourself as part of your lifestyle so they can join you.

Issue number 2, you place yourself on a pedastal for your decision on diet, believing yourself more compassionate than others and more capable of empathy, and yet you apparently have limited experience with animals apart from domestic pets. From the position of general ignorance, i guess its possible to have such beliefs.

I assure you that your opinion on vermin in particular might change if you had to deal with them in any regular capacity. Your innocence is displayed with " oh i would just capture it and let it loose far away"

Responding to issue #1: Regardless, dogs can live in extremely good health on a vegan diet. If they were so exclusively carnivorous, they would have health problems and die on a meat-free diet, and in practice this is not the case. As long as they get ample protein, vitamins, and minerals, they will live just as long as and as healthily as a dog that eats meat. In fact, they will certainly be healthier than a dog that lives on a cheap meat-based dog food which contains animal byproducts and corn, which is sadly what a good majority of dogs are fed.

The entire time I've had my oldest dog, the veterinarians have been amazed at his blood test results and overall health. I constantly hear, "Whatever you are doing is working." He is at least 16 years old now, and he loves his food, so I would say that I am not doing him a disservice, and think of how many animals have been spared from living horrible lives and being slaughtered.

Responding to issue #2: I'm not holding myself superior to others. I don't think I'm any better than anyone else, but I do live consistent with my own values. Really, this isn't about me, it's about the animals. In this day and age there's no justification to kill animals for food, yet people still do it, and I'm speaking up about it.

I'm not as ignorant as you think. My position comes from being observant of the world around me and being curious. I'm done much research. I've been on dairy farms where there are always sick and dying baby calves because they are taken away from their mothers the day they are born, while their mothers cry out.

The calves aren't allowed to breastfeed because it would take away from the farmers' profits, so the females are fed just enough formula to keep them alive (if they are fortunate) until they are able to eat solid food (consisting largely of soybeans grown on rainforest land which was cut down, or parts of other animals or even cows), and then they are used like machines to the point where their udders become sore and the milk becomes contaminated with feces, blood, and pus. Once the cows' bodies are broken and depleted of nutrition from being milked so heavily, they are sent off for slaughter.

What happens to the male calves? They are useless to the farmers, so they get killed by a sledgehammer to the head, bashing the calf's head on the ground, using a bolt gun, or slitting his throat--OR the calf is starved to death, and is sold for veal.

It's my knowledge of the subject matter plus the fact the fact that I care that has changed my mind about animal agriculture, not ignorance. Ignorance was when I thought happy animals just died of old age and then their bodies were made into food so that they wouldn't have to be buried.

My question to you: What is your experience with rodents, and why do you feel it was necessary to kill them?

Squiggle Dog · #68 08-30-2018, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HuskyMan

I've had many long conversations with a friend who is a nutritionist. She's seen the situation involving vegans up close. Some people do very well going to an all vegan diet. She's seen others make the switch and ended up in the hospital and in some cases they DIED.

If you look at meat protein versus plant protein under a microscope, you will easily see that meat protein is FIVE times the size of plant protein.

To put this into perspective, a FAR higher percentage of meat-eaters suffer poor health and early death than do vegans. The number one killer in the USA is heart disease. Someone who eats meat has a 50% chance of dying from heart disease. A vegan has only a 4% chance and switching to a vegan diet has been proven to reverse heart disease.

Artery-clogging cholesterol is a problem, as well. Did you know that dietary cholesterol is only found in animal products, and that if you stop consuming animal products, you practically eliminate your risk of clogged arteries?

A vegan ending up in a hospital due to improper nutrition is extremely rare, while a meat-eater ending up in a hospital due to improper nutrition is extremely common.

That's interesting about animal proteins being larger than plant proteins, but do you know what the significance of it is? Eating plant proteins is still adequate to ones' health needs, including body-builders. The world-record holder for "strongest man" belongs to Patrik Baboumian, who is vegan: https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/692366/World-strongest-man-Patrick-Baboumian-PETA-vegan .

Squiggle Dog · #69 08-30-2018, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vwnate1

" I am passionate about this."

? Really, I hadn't noticed

.

I feed my pups only kibble occasionally augmented with left overs that include meat products .

My Sire is now 20 years old, the longest living pup I've ever had . most expire in their sleep after 17 ~ 18 healthy happy, vigorous years of running 'round, barking and crapping all over my yard .(plus of course, belly rubs on demand ~ they have me well trained) .

L.A.'s Animal Control used to euthanize unwanted animals (mostly dogs) by putting them into sealed cages and vacuuming out all the air ~ surely a horrible way to die .

Then they'd render the carcass' and seal the liquid remains into 55 gallon drums, we who worked for the City jokingly called this residue "dog in a drum" and I recall it was sold as fertilizer base . it was pretty nasty stuff .

I *think* they've managed to become a no kill shelter but it's really, really difficult considering how many animals get taken in .

This is an interesting thread, as I age out I eat ever more veggies and fruits but I have no qualms about eating animals nor their by products .

More young children should be taken early on to the slaughter house so they can see where their dinner comes from, in my day they were shot then rendered using chain saws, hack saws, axes and machetes ~ horrifying to some, just work for me as the animals weren't ever treated cruelly on the farms I worked on or visited and they were killed instantly .

All this is making me think of having an early lunch of liver with bacon and onions ~ for those who don't know, the liver filters the blood so eating tasty liver is like eating old oil filters from your Mercedes but -far- tastier .

The reason I mentioned my being passionate about this, is that I don't want anyone to feel that I'm posting in the spirit of attacking or condescension. It can be hard to interpret tone in written works. But, I do want to urge people to live more compassionately.

That's good that your dogs have lived for so long. I've seen so many dogs that appear to be severely aged at as young as seven years old, and most dogs seem to rarely make it to 10. I'm not disputing that a dog can't live a long, healthy life eating meat, but I am stating the a dog can live just as long and healthily on a plant-based diet as well, and it's more common than people might think. There are also dogs that are allergic to certain types of meat, and some are allergic to all types of meat.

That's pretty nasty about Los Angeles's animal control, but it illustrates the horrible reality of it. Life isn't all roses and sunshine like many people think it is, that's why I want to do something about it.

Children would indeed be traumatized by viewing the inside of a slaughterhouse. It goes to show how desensitized a person can become to violence over time. Yet, slaughterhouse employees have very high rates of alcohol and drug abuse, and psychological issues due to the environment in which they work. I would say that putting people in those jobs is a human rights violation. What's really sick is that often refugees fleeing violence in countries such as Pakistan are often forced to work in slaughterhouses when they arrive in this country, having to inflict the violence on innocent beings that they were trying to escape.

Many people can't handle slaughterhouse footage. So, if it's not good enough for our eyes, why is it good enough for our stomach?

I would plead that you would instead of having liver, bacon, and onions, try something that didn't come from an animal that lived a horrible life and died in agony--pigs are kept in horrible conditions and are usually killed in a gas chamber. The gas chamber is typically a gondola in which they are loaded up and lowered into a pit. C02 gas is introduced and the pigs scream and squeal as carbonic acid forms inside their lungs and burns them from the inside out.

If you go inside a gas chamber, you'll probably find about 50 hooves in there, from the pigs trying to chew off their own legs to escape. Pretty brutal. You may want to browse your store and see if they have any vegan bacon and give it a try.

HuskyMan · #70 08-30-2018, 04:56 PM

Stray dogs are a direct result of people being people. I'd like to find the stray dog's owner and put HIM in the pound!! Wait a while to see if anyone comes to bail him out of dog jail.

Squiggle Dog · #71 08-30-2018, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HuskyMan

Stray dogs are a direct result of people being people. I'd like to find the stray dog's owner and put HIM in the pound!! Wait a while to see if anyone comes to bail him out of dog jail.

So true. Fix the problem at the source.

rocky raccoon · #72 08-30-2018, 06:00 PM

Squigs, I can say you are a fighter but not likely to win this debate.

Squiggle Dog · #73 08-30-2018, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rocky raccoon

Squigs, I can say you are a fighter but not likely to win this debate.

The facts are all on my side, so I don't see why not. Though after all that's said, I can't force anyone to care. But, I can put forth an argument that may influence someone to change their way of thinking.

rocky raccoon · #74 08-30-2018, 08:54 PM

The only reason you will not win (or influence any) is that a beefsteak just tastes too good and is too satisfying to eat.

vwnate1 · #75 08-30-2018, 09:21 PM

I don't agree that the facts back you up Squig. , I do agree that you're compassionate and I think that's a very good thing .

I rerally enjoyed my lunch of Liver Bacon and Onions !

.

I didn't suggest taking Children to the slaughterhouse to shock / traumatize them, I meant it as a normal educational thing , like was done all the time sixty + years ago.....

Children are far more accepting and resilient to the facts of life than most seem to realize .

I seriously agree that _PEOPLE_ need to be forced to be responsible with pets and stock animals too ~ I never saw anyone mis treating animals when I was a Farm Boy .