Neighbors - Page 6 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

Squiggle Dog · #76 08-30-2018, 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rocky raccoon

The only reason you will not win (or influence any) is that a beefsteak just tastes too good and is too satisfying to eat.

But is taste worth more than an animal's life? I think not. If human meat tastes good, is that a justification to kill humans? Just because one gets pleasure from something, doesn't justify the action. It's pure selfishness.

Don't underestimate the power of influence. You'd be amazed to see how fast veganism is growing. Some people don't care and would prefer to live selfishly, but many people are realizing this isn't how they want to live their lives, at the expense of others.

Squiggle Dog · #77 08-30-2018, 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vwnate1

I don't agree that the facts back you up Squig. , I do agree that you're compassionate and I think that's a very good thing .

I rerally enjoyed my lunch of Liver Bacon and Onions !

.

I didn't suggest taking Children to the slaughterhouse to shock / traumatize them, I meant it as a normal educational thing , like was done all the time sixty + years ago.....

Children are far more accepting and resilient to the facts of life than most seem to realize .

I seriously agree that _PEOPLE_ need to be forced to be responsible with pets and stock animals too ~ I never saw anyone mis treating animals when I was a Farm Boy .

I'm up for a challenge. Name something for which the facts do not back me up. Going vegan is better for the animals, better for humans, and better for the environment. It's rock solid logic and there is no argument against it other than selfish reasons such as cultural tradition, habit, taste preference, and convenience.

I'm sure you enjoyed your lunch of animal flesh, but it was at the cost of the lives of animals which suffered greatly and were killed just so you could feel satisfied. I wouldn't be proud of that and hope that one day you will come to value animal life a bit more.

Children are adaptable and easily molded. It's also easy to mold them into murderers and psychopaths if that's the aim. In fact, look at how many school shootings there are these days. It doesn't take much to influence a child.

Well, in these days of factory farming, animal abuse and cruelty is really unavoidable. No matter how nicely they are treated, they are murdered well before they would die of natural causes. These animals are nothing more than products to these industries, anyway.

Eating meat isn't a sustainable practice with the way the world population is increasing. Eating animals is an inefficient way of getting nutrition. It takes 2,500 gallons of water, 12 pounds of grain, 35 pounds of topsoil and the energy equivalent of one gallon of gasoline to produce one pound of feedlot beef. 70% of US grain production is fed to livestock. 5 million acres of rainforest are felled every year in South and Central America alone to create cattle pasture. Roughly 20% of all currently threatened and endangered species in the US are harmed by livestock grazing. Animal agriculture is a chief contributor to water pollution. America’s farm animals produce 10 times the waste produced by the human population.

If we ate just a plant-based diet, it would be so much more efficient and less taxing on the environment. The only reason beef is even affordable at all is because our tax dollars pay for subsidies to farmers. I'd rather that my tax dollars not be going towards this!

Diseasel300 · #78 08-30-2018, 11:08 PM

Boy did this thread go off the rails....

t walgamuth · #79 08-31-2018, 05:00 AM

Over population may make us all vegan in the future....eating algae.

strelnik · #80 08-31-2018, 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diseasel300

That wasn't the problem, the problem was that you openly condoned a CRIMINAL act as if it were just something "normal". It isn't and you need to take a serious look at yourself if you feel that's an appropriate response.

When a dog attack occurs, you call the police. The dog is not your property and not your place to resolve the issue. If the dog is aggressive or has a history of attacking people, it will be seized by the authorities. That's what they're there for.

In my city, if you call the cops about a stray or wild dog, with or without collar and ID, you get a follow-up call shortly thereafter from a private "animal care" service. The service will, for the low low low price of $300, catch the animal and dispose of it, including cremation.

This is nothing more than the municipality washing its hands of a responsibility. And in any case, the animal is always "disposed of." I don't mean at the animal shelter.

The person in question operates his service out of a small van and says he does about 4 calls per day, on the average. $6000 a week, to believe him.

I know all this because a 90 year old neighbor asked me to call about her flowers being ruined by a stray dog. So I called the city, then the animal service, got the 411.

Diseasel300 · #81 08-31-2018, 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by strelnik

In my city, if you call the cops about a stray or wild dog, with or without collar and ID, you get a follow-up call shortly thereafter from a private "animal care" service. The service will, for the low low low price of $300, catch the animal and dispose of it, including cremation.

This is nothing more than the municipality washing its hands of a responsibility. And in any case, the animal is always "disposed of." I don't mean at the animal shelter.

The person in question operates his service out of a small van and says he does about 4 calls per day, on the average. $6000 a week, to believe him.

I know all this because a 90 year old neighbor asked me to call about her flowers being ruined by a stray dog. So I called the city, then the animal service, got the 411.

Sounds like typical Michigan operation. Fortunately for us, the taxes we pay for animal control go to animal control. Our department is fairly active, operates a standard shelter and defers to a no-kill shelter fairly often. Using tax money for the intended purpose has its benefits.

savas · #82 08-31-2018, 10:59 AM

I usually hate HOAs but I now understand why they came into existence.

HuskyMan · #83 08-31-2018, 11:31 AM

This. Man has ALWAYS had dominion over the animals. MAN is the boss of ALL animals. We have three idiots in my neighborhood that refuse to keep their violent dogs on leash. One, a pit bull attacked one of the neighhbors and bit him severely on the leg.

There are only three animal control officers who work for the city and we've noticed when they are called to the scene, magically the off-leash dog VANISHES.

HuskyMan · #84 08-31-2018, 11:32 AM

We also have wild coyotes and foxes that regularly break into people's yards and kill their cats and dogs. Animal control won't do a d*mn thing about them, either.

Your tax dollars barely working, lying around drinking mint julep iced tea while your life continues to go to h*ll......

Zulfiqar · #85 08-31-2018, 11:40 AM

wow - this really went sideways.

I have only seen this veganism craze in the USA and UK - all other places, specially poor countries. almost all people live on a 80% veg, grain and dairy and 20% meat diet. They have been living for centuries like this.

and slaughtering and carving a carcass makes you a psychopath? how??

vwnate1 · #86 08-31-2018, 12:23 PM

The American diet didn't include much meat until after the turn of the century and this also was when cancer began to rear it's ugly head .

My Father was a Doctor, an Oncologist to be exact and by the time he was 50 he stopped eating meat, prolly why he lived to graduate Harvard the _second_ time at age 9- and lived to be 93 .

In the end Squig's arguments are all moot, not only because they're full of dog whistled but the basic fact that as mentioned : meat tastes damn good and we're at the top of the food chain, simple, you're not going to change it much no matter how you bend the statistics .

Yep, this thread went astray but is still (IMO) useful .

Squiggle Dog · #87 08-31-2018, 12:57 PM

Man may have dominion over animals. Let's say this was given to us by God. If not, who GAVE us dominion? Ourselves? Is that not comparable to the school bully who appoints himself to have dominion over the weaker students? It's probably not a valid argument unless one believes in God.

So, let's say God gave us dominion over the animals. What is the definition of dominion? Supreme authority or absolute ownership. Does that mean that we should abuse or kill the animals? Let's say you have a fairly nice vintage Mercedes that you've been working on for your son's first car. You make sure that it's nice and reliable, and maybe do some cosmetic work on it so its looks decent.

You give this car to your son and sign over the paperwork. You tell him that it is his, and therefore he has full legal ownership of the vehicle, and it is up to him to maintain it and keep it in good repair. But instead of doing this, he never changes the oil, keeps it dirty, and goes off-roading in it with his friends. The interior gets trashed and the body gets dented. You voice your frustration about the way he's treating this once nice car that you gave him, and he replies back, "What? It's my car, lay off! I'll treat it how I want. It IS my car, right?"

One day he calls you and says that the engine just quit working. You go to inspect the car and find that the engine locked up because it overheated due to a lack of oil and coolant. The car is too damaged to be worth repairing, so you have it hauled off for scrap. Would you not be disappointed in your son and frustrated with the way he treated the car you gave him? Only instead of mistreating a car, the human race is mistreating animals.

If a person was in a survival situation where they were starving and there were no edible plants around, there would be justification in killing and eating an animal if they needed to in order to survive. NONE of us are in this situation, and it's disturbing that we would still want to not only kill the animals, but also make their lives a living hell. Because can and we like the taste of meat?

Also, just because something has always been done, doesn't mean that it should still be done, nor does it even mean that it was ever right in the first place. Man have ALWAYS killed other men, raped women, and stolen. Does that make it right? Does that mean that I should steal whenever I want something just because it's always been done? Does that mean I should rape someone because it brings me great pleasure? No.

If advanced humanoids were to arrive on this planet, do you think they would be justified in thinking that they were the bosses of us, just because they were much more intelligent? Would they be justified in harvesting our organs? But we taste SO GOOD to them, and they are smarter than us. They say that they have dominion over us. I assure you that your perspective would change if the tables were turned. It's easy for us to say we can do whatever we want to animals from our lofty, comfortable viewpoint. Thank goodness we were born the kings of the world, right?

Isn't it also great that we can get kids in third world countries to make our shoes for us? They have to work 18 hour days and make about three cents a day. It's a good thing God saw it in his wisdom to put us where we belong, and those inferior "humans" where they belong.

It's sure a shame we have to pay so much for cotton these days, though. God made slaves for us to use so we could have a more comfortable life, yet those darn human rights activists had to ruin it all for us. Too bad the slaves had a voice, too. At least the animals don't, right? So we can pretend they don't mind.

The above paragraphs sound pretty selfish and ridiculous, right? What makes abusing and killing animals any different? That it's still legal and socially acceptable? One day it won't be.

On a lighter note, I have coyotes in my neighborhood as well. It may be why homes in the Phoenix Valley always seem to have high cinder block walls around the property. Sometimes they can be surprisingly friendly, but temperaments vary, so it's good to be cautious.

I bet they wouldn't be so dangerous/such a nuisance if they weren't meat-eaters! If they had a way to eat more plant-based without human assistance, they'd be just like puppy dogs. Also, I am aware that a true carnivore such as a lion may not be able to survive on anything except for meat. But, though a lion can be tamed to a certain extent, they don't make very good pets! A dog, however is not a true carnivore and has the flexibility to live a healthy, long life on a plant-based diet (and they make great pets, but please be responsible with them).

Humans also have this same ability. In fact, the human body is more suited eating a plant-based diet than a meat-based one. Canine teeth? They aren't very big on a human. Many herbivores have huge canine teeth, anyway. The human digestive system isn't really set up to digest meat, either. It CAN, but animal proteins leach calcium from the bones because it's the only way the body can deal with the acidity, which explains why osteoporosis is more common in people that consume dairy than those who don't, even though it's supposed to "build strong bones"--dairy propganda people fall for.

vwnate1 · #88 08-31-2018, 01:07 PM

Good points all Squig but you're still never going to win this one .

Unlike most here I've lived in American and third world shyteholes and seen poverty and slavery up close and personal, it's wrong, period and part of why we take in Foster kids .

Squiggle Dog · #89 08-31-2018, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zulfiqar

wow - this really went sideways.

I have only seen this veganism craze in the USA and UK - all other places, specially poor countries. almost all people live on a 80% veg, grain and dairy and 20% meat diet. They have been living for centuries like this.

and slaughtering and carving a carcass makes you a psychopath? how??

Veganism is growing fastest in countries that have information available to them. Now instead of just saying, "I think it's wrong to eat animals", we can show people through YouTube and social media exactly WHY we are saying this, and can show proof of what eating meat is doing to animals, peoples' health, and the environment. Third world countries do tend to stay in the dark ages.

Poor countries often eat mostly vegan because it's more expensive to grow animals for meat than it is to grow vegetables. Meat is a luxury item. Those poor countries that still eat meat would do better to eat a more efficient diet. If someone is living in a country where the land is so desolate that absolutely nothing edible and nutritious will grow, and all they have are animals that eat grasses or plants that aren't edible or nutritious to humans, they have justification in eating animals if they would otherwise die. We are not even close to being in that situation.

Japan had a ban on meat for 1,200 years. Current statistics show Japan is 96% plant-based (though of course this will change due to the fast food chains being introduced), and they have the longest life expectancy. Compare that to the USA, which is only 68% plant-based. Yet even with our wealth and modern medicine, the USA has one of the shortest life expectancies and the poorest health. Why? Heart disease and poor cardiovascular health. Osteoporosis and diabetes are also a big problems.

If a person doesn't have to kill an animal in order to survive and thrive, and they do it simply for the pleasure of eating the animal, I would say that's a psychopathic behavior. Some people kill and eat other people because they like it. Why is that different? Because it might be you next? Killing for survival is totally different than killing for pleasure. If a person HAS to kill, they HAVE to kill (or die). Their hand is forced. But if a person doesn't have to kill, and in fact if their health, the animal, and the planet were better off if the person didn't kill that animal, yet they do it anyway just because they're addicted to the taste, doesn't that look like an immoral decision?

With the above said, I don't think that people are really bloodthirsty killers by nature, but I think that people tend to follow tradition, even if it's immoral. It's uncomfortable to break the chain and look like an odd duck, or as was written by another poster, a "fruitcake". I also think that people who have had difficult lives and have suffered oppression tend to "get it" more because they've been on the other end of mistreatment and have more empathy. It's hard to have empathy when one has lived a comfortable life.

Squiggle Dog · #90 08-31-2018, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vwnate1

The American diet didn't include much meat until after the turn of the century and this also was when cancer began to rear it's ugly head .

My Father was a Doctor, an Oncologist to be exact and by the time he was 50 he stopped eating meat, prolly why he lived to graduate Harvard the _second_ time at age 9- and lived to be 93 .

In the end Squig's arguments are all moot, not only because they're full of dog whistled but the basic fact that as mentioned : meat tastes damn good and we're at the top of the food chain, simple, you're not going to change it much no matter how you bend the statistics .

Yep, this thread went astray but is still (IMO) useful .

Yes, eating animal products and cancer are interconnected. And then throw in processed foods for the plant-based portion, add refined sugars and junk food, and you're a real ticking time-bomb.

You're right that I can't make someone care if they are beyond feeling. But, I've found that there are a lot more people that care and are motivated enough to do something about it than one might think.

I'm not really concerned about "winning" the argument as much as I am about putting forth statements that people can ponder over so they can reflect on themselves and ask themselves if they are really living according to the values which they say they possess.

Eating meat just because it tastes good is a stupid reason to justify killing an animal that also suffered a horrible life. Many vegans like the taste of meat (I don't, even the smell makes me gag, but I think the longer one stops eating meat, the less appetizing it becomes--it's like any addiction, after a while, the temptation lessens, though for me I've never had a craving for animal products since I stopped eating them over 15 years ago), but it hasn't stopped them from removing it from their diet because they realize that taste isn't worth more than an animal's life, plus if your meat comes from a factory farm (try finding meat that doesn't, and non-factory-farming isn't possible for everyone, anyway; there simply isn't enough land on earth for everyone who eats meat to eat non-factory-farmed meat at the rate at which they are currently eating it) then the animal lived in horrible conditions where they were treated like an object.

Even if the statistics are bent in favor of eating meat (which they often are by the meat, dairy, and egg industries), they still don't look good and the holes in the logic are pretty apparent.