Botnst,

"An alliance to hunt-down and defeat a group that is bent on destruction of western democracy" is a concept that the Spanish and the rest of the world joined us in when we went into Afghanistan. By your own words many times over, the Iraq "War" is not about that, no WMD, no A-Q center of activity. For you, it is getting rid of Saddam, a bad guy, who would destabilize the oil supplies.

The problem is that some people, including Americans and our allies, and former allies, feel the justification for the invasion of Iraq was an important element, maybe the only element of substance, in their decision to join us. I have heard you make the point the justification is not important to you, and believe you. It is not important to you. For others the justification was taken at face value on our government's word. That word is no longer being taken at face value. If we are getting into a war, we need to have those on our side believe us, and we need to believe them, or we will find ourselves alone.

I believe the problem is very large and fuzzy at the moment. When it clears up I do not want to live under the rule of a government fashioned after the typical Islamic governments of Mid East countries. These encounters that cost us international support in this struggle because we are too distracted by the antics of our enemy to think clearly cannot be excused any longer. Iraq is a gross mistake and we should admit it. It may not change the nightly news headlines much over the next few years, but it may go a long way to restoring our trustworthiness and leadership.

So, if you don't care about the WMD no one, not even GWB's handpicked searchers with superior knowledge of their whereabouts can find, and the unsupportable claims of Saddam and Osama being collaborators as reasons for justifying the invasion of Iraq, because they are not real, and the justifications you cling to are based on the economics of oil supply and demand and the given fact that Saddam was a bad guy, it would be much more straightforward and less "nuanced" if you were consistent. Adding a link from Saddam to the A-Q led group bent on our destruction as the justification for invading Iraq, and casting aspersions on the nations turning their backs on this effort in disgust over how we used them seems less than above board. Kind of arguing for the sake of arguing somewhere along the line.

I think the Spanish are still part of our alliance, but they, like others are not longer going to go with us because we ask. They will question us and say "no" now and then because we taught them it is possibly in their best interest to be independent and untrusting of our word. I don't think they did something smart, by the way, but I think it was as much a message to us as it was a message to anyone else. I see the Brits giving us a similar message soon, along with a number of other old friends. It is a shame. We are losing track of how we rose to our position of leadership, and taking it for granted. Our shortsightedness is damning our future. We are always responding to what the enemy does, which cedes a good bit of control of timing, pace or intensity and scope to the enemy. We need to stretch our vision and strategy to ensure a long future for America at the top of the heap. Jim

__________________
Own:
1986 Euro 190E 2.3-16 (291,000 miles),
1998 E300D TurboDiesel, 231,000 miles -purchased with 45,000,
1988 300E 5-speed 252,000 miles,
1983 240D 4-speed, purchased w/136,000, now with 222,000 miles.
2009 ML320CDI Bluetec, 89,000 miles

Owned:
1971 220D (250,000 miles plus, sold to father-in-law),
1975 240D (245,000 miles - died of body rot),
1991 350SD (176,560 miles, weakest Benz I have owned),
1999 C230 Sport (45,400 miles),
1982 240D (321,000 miles, put to sleep)

Posted by Botnst: I didn't know that the final disposition of WMD's had been decided. Enlighten me.

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Well, it's been a year; we've had upwards of 130,000 troops on the ground all that time; we've come up with precious little of anything that resembles WMD; we've been led down the path of lies by the administration time and again (the aluminum tubes, the mobile weapons facilities, all rendered harmless). How much time will it take for you to be convinced that they are not there?

Joe B.

Your allies have been deserting you as ours become more numerous. Not a good sign, General Custer.

Let's be accurate. They found one quart of Sarin in a pre -1991 artillery shell. I never forget the Meet the Press where one of the Repub flacks was waving a picture of it around while foaming at the mouth over it. Kuccinich, seated next to him asked to see the photo. He held it up nice and still for the camera and said "Is that all you got? For 800 lives and 120 Billion dollars, this is what you have? Give me a break." The Republican never mentioned it after.

I think a lot of us would be better off if the US left the UN inspectors there to not find the WMD for another year or so. If it would make Botnst happy, we could have also offed Saddam and his disgusting offspring after exercising the patience to obtain the necessary meaningful intelligence, take the time to make a valid plan, and insert some special ops forces to do the deed. Jim

__________________
Own:
1986 Euro 190E 2.3-16 (291,000 miles),
1998 E300D TurboDiesel, 231,000 miles -purchased with 45,000,
1988 300E 5-speed 252,000 miles,
1983 240D 4-speed, purchased w/136,000, now with 222,000 miles.
2009 ML320CDI Bluetec, 89,000 miles

Owned:
1971 220D (250,000 miles plus, sold to father-in-law),
1975 240D (245,000 miles - died of body rot),
1991 350SD (176,560 miles, weakest Benz I have owned),
1999 C230 Sport (45,400 miles),
1982 240D (321,000 miles, put to sleep)

The whole thing was half-cocked. We should have sent those troops to Afganistan. Iraq would have eventually taken care of itself. The whole history of Iraq has been one bunch bumping off another. Personally, I thought the best solution would have been to support Kurdistan's desire for independence. That would have given us a nice military base amidst people who wanted us there, and access to theirf oil too, and a heck of a lot better chance of a functioning democratic example as well from a populace that actually wants it.

'how do you win a war?'

what has OBL et al done? 1) a massive symbolic blow to the
far away fortress of the enemy (9/11) causing widespreed
fear and panic to a previous smug and insular populance. 2)
counted on the enemy, whom he knows well to make a rash
and costly responce (iraq), that will be politicly to his advantage and cause great division within the enemys ranks. 3) bog the
enemy army down, in a wasteland no less. 4) open up a new
front (saudi arabia) againtst the enemys corporate side and
his ruling lackys. 5) continue to spread the message that the
enemy isnt all powerful and that 'we will overcome' 6) welcome
new members into his camp while the enemy fights to keep his
people from fleeing.

what is OBL et al next move? inquiring minds want to know. i think outside the box but am clueless

don 'hopeing ashcroft doesnt think i'm the enemy'

That sounds like it might have actually worked. Then what? Another Israel? I am not sure this democracy growing over there is really worth it, as the people don't seem to want it enough to fight for it and the adjacent countries see it as a severe threat. We would end up being there as a military force, protecting them to keep them alive. I am not against such a plan, I just want to see it from more than its best looking side to make sure it doesn't have a fatally ugly side. Jim

__________________
Own:
1986 Euro 190E 2.3-16 (291,000 miles),
1998 E300D TurboDiesel, 231,000 miles -purchased with 45,000,
1988 300E 5-speed 252,000 miles,
1983 240D 4-speed, purchased w/136,000, now with 222,000 miles.
2009 ML320CDI Bluetec, 89,000 miles

Owned:
1971 220D (250,000 miles plus, sold to father-in-law),
1975 240D (245,000 miles - died of body rot),
1991 350SD (176,560 miles, weakest Benz I have owned),
1999 C230 Sport (45,400 miles),
1982 240D (321,000 miles, put to sleep)

Notlostmaybe –You’re blowin it Bub. Before we ever went into Iraq and 70% were (seemed to me) blindly fallowing Dubya into Iraq - against the worldview - I made the Nutzi comparison as a potential. As a worst case scenario and everything goes as wrong as it possible could I guess (gives me chills) I could still see it, but no – don’t say that.
Kirk – Get over this idea that it’s a majority of Muslim’s. It’s a big number, and if we keep screwing this up it could grow very easily too that, but it’s not for now. Frankly though, it’s hard to believe we’re not going to keep screwing. They know all about how we work democracy – too install the Shaw we helped overthrow a democratically elected government. Saddam didn’t seem to take on this evil status until he wanted to take back that part of Iraq that England had created as Kuwait.
As for the Chamberlain comparison. History may just rank Bush’s blowing the opportunity we had for a world wide unified assault on terrorism after 9/11 to the blunder Chamberlain made.
For better or worse we are there now, so let’s try to keep the discussion on how to end, win, conclude successfully, find peace. Maybe the French, English or Russians might have some good insight – no Israel ought to have it pretty well figured out by now.
Bot –it’s not a matter of adopting their values. Their values are as diverse as our own. We’ve got to find and support that group within their community that we have common ground with. They’re there someplace, without being our puppets – I think?

__________________
89 300E
79 240D
72 Westy
63 Bug sunroof
85 Jeep CJ7
86 Chevy 6.2l diesel PU

"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."
Marcus Aurelius

It's not my number - surveys in any muslim country routinely reveal what I am saying. Muslim men fear losing their dominate place in society and have became more reactionary. Muslim women who are religous fear the decadance of the west. They widely support Bin Laden by great majorities, in most all muslim countries, idealogically. They are very split on his methods.

I’d say it goes to the way in which these poles are taken, or the way in which the questions are asked. Ideologically – absolutely. Here the Christian right is all up over abortion, but few are blowing up abortion clinics. There you’ll find among the economically desperate more that will take action and at the other end many very wealthy Saudi’s are lending support. Still there is not a majority willing to take up arms. What OBL is all about is at the very core of Islamic belief, but his methods can only be condoned by a Hanbali interpretation, and that is a minority? It’s changing for sure, and if we ever become economically unimportant to them it’ll get uglier than we can even imagine. Best sign I can give you is when it’s dangerous to go to Dearborn MI - it’s on – but with understanding I hope we can avoid this.

__________________
89 300E
79 240D
72 Westy
63 Bug sunroof
85 Jeep CJ7
86 Chevy 6.2l diesel PU

"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."
Marcus Aurelius

Custer, a pistol in each hand, goes down, riddled with barbs.

Posted by KirkVining: Custer, a pistol in each hand, goes down, riddled with barbs.

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His blonde mane flying, his rich red blood streaming down his face, he stares into the vast meaninglessness of the universe, and asks--"Why me?!?"

As if in reply, the heavens open up and a deep voice intones: "I don't know, somethin' about you just kind of ticked me off."

Joe B.

What you two seem to be into is winning your point instead of expanding your understanding. Bot adds all kinds of meaningful observations to these discussions, and frequently puts a spin on things that I hadn’t considered. So when he or anyone gets feed up with the character that these threads take and doesn’t participate, you both lose – so do I, and I don’t appreciate it.

__________________
89 300E
79 240D
72 Westy
63 Bug sunroof
85 Jeep CJ7
86 Chevy 6.2l diesel PU

"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."
Marcus Aurelius

I'm not anymore responsible for what he does than I am of you. Political discussions do not consist of walking on egg shells. Don't expect me to do so. People with strongly held beliefs do them the best service by defending them passionatly. As far as expanding my understanding, I'm a pretty well read guy who does research for a living. My understanding is expanding just fine, thanks.