Parts Catalog Accessories Catalog How To Articles Tech Forums
Call Pelican Parts at 888-280-7799
Shopping Cart Cart | Project List | Order Status | Help



Go Back   PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum > Mercedes-Benz Tech Information and Support > Tech Help

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 06-06-2015, 10:00 AM
ps2cho's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Chandler, Arizona
Posts: 3,525
Alignment Guru's? Question on camber...

So I am behind on schedule (due to waiting for a different ball joint splitter) on replacing my 2008 E350's lower control arms which have COMPLETELY eaten my inside tire severely as seen at the bottom image. The lower control arm bushings are split and the new fresh ones will solve this.
Needless to say I can't take it to the alignment shop this weekend anymore due to time constraints so I am looking into doing a good enough alignment to get by.

My lower control arm bolts are not like my 124's that are eccentric, so I assume that because of this, camber is not adjustable? Or at least not without buying the camber bolt kit...

If I use the string method that I looked up online, I should be able to get the toe set correctly right?

Over the years I have read that MB alignment is all magic and only wizards can align them, but after googling more and more, I can't see how MB's are any different? Sure they use the spreader bar, but again, after research, I found that the spreader bar is actually used to simulate high speed (autobahn speeds) which I do not travel close to anyway, so it shouldn't even matter.

What do you aligment gurus think or advise?



__________________
2016 Monsoon Gray Audi Allroad - 21k
2008 Black Mercedes E350 4Matic Sport - 131k
2014 Jeep Wranger Unlimited Sahara - 62k
2003 Gray Mercedes ML350 - 122k
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 06-06-2015, 10:14 AM
Lucas's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 1,204
Find the time to take it in. They use lasers and computers that you do not have.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 06-06-2015, 11:50 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Southern California
Posts: 2,277
I've been aligning my all my cars for over 30 years using an inclinometer and tape measure with excellent results. My '88 190E 2.6 front alignment adjustments - eccentrics on the lower control arm mounts are just like my 1976 Cosworth Vega, so there's nothing special about the front, but the rear may be a different story. Alignment shops have great equipment, but the techs are clueless, and I have specific settings for all my cars that are different than the OE recommendations.

It sounds like your car is a so called "net build" i.e. there are no adjustments other than to install offset "crash bolts". My '91 MR2 is like that - no camber adjustment, but caster and toe are adjustable. The OE camber is minus one degree, which is okay, but I adjusted caster (adjustable length drag struts) to the maximum, equal on both sides, that was available within the adjustment range - about six degrees.

I adjusted my '88 190E 2.6 to maximum negative camber and postive caster equal on both sides, available with the adjustment range, which came out to minus 3/4 deg. camber and plus 10.5 deg. caster. I never used a spreader bar for the toe adjustment and shoot for total toe-in of about 1/32". I think the idea behind the spreader bar it to take up any play in the joints.

I recently had to replace the tie rods and center link due to joint wear. It took a few tries tweaking the tie rods to get the 1/32" total toe-in with the steering wheel dead centered driving down a road with minimum camber, and since all the joints were new, there was no play.

With the settings I use, wear across the treads is very even with no indication of any abnormal wear. Typically fronts wear more on the shoulders and rears more in the center, but 7.5K mile tire rotations evens it out over the life of the tires.

Duke

Last edited by Duke2.6; 06-06-2015 at 12:03 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 06-06-2015, 12:42 PM
Lucas's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 1,204
Where are you in socal? Do you offer your services for hire? Lol. I hate the caster settings on most cars.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 06-06-2015, 02:55 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 7,534
That's more than just camber wear, you have lots of toe. And are possibly low on air. ( if the outer edge shows any wear )

If tires are wearing due to worn out suspension parts and suspension is non adjustable, changing then will bring everything back pretty close.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 06-06-2015, 03:25 PM
ps2cho's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Chandler, Arizona
Posts: 3,525
My lower control arm bushing was cracked right down the middle and there doesn't seem to be any slack anywhere else in the system. I believe that was the cause of all the wear. The rest of the tire was fine -- Everything but the inside had 7/32" life left! Quite a shame actually...
Since the camber/caster is non-adjustable, and I replace the lower control arm + ball joint...then the only other place that would make any changes must be spring sag only.

I ran out today and bought a Craftsman Digital level gauge. I plan to cut a straight 2x4 to the size of the rim and use that to measure the camber.

I don't quite understand caster quite yet on how to "check" it? Can anyone explain if there is a way I can measure it using the digital level gauge I got?
__________________
2016 Monsoon Gray Audi Allroad - 21k
2008 Black Mercedes E350 4Matic Sport - 131k
2014 Jeep Wranger Unlimited Sahara - 62k
2003 Gray Mercedes ML350 - 122k
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 06-06-2015, 10:59 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 4,178
Even with the Romess ride height tools and an MB specific alignment rack 211s are among a group of chassis that are very hit and miss when it comes to alignments. Good tracking AND tire wear is not easy to achieve.
__________________

90 300TE 4-M
Turbo 103, T3/T04E 50 trim
T04B cover .60 AR
Stage 3 turbine .63 AR
A2W I/C, 40 LB/HR
MS2E, 60-2 Direct Coil Control
3" Exh, AEM W/B O2
Underdrive Alt. and P/S Pulleys,
Vented Rear Discs, .034 Booster.
3.07 diffs 1st Gear Start

90 300CE
104.980
Milled & ported head, 10.3:1 compression
197° intake cam w/20° advancer
Tuned CIS ECU
4° ignition advance
PCS TCM2000, built 722.6
600W networked suction fan
Sportline sway bars
V8 rear subframe, Quaife ATB 3.06 diff
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 06-06-2015, 11:27 PM
Lucas's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 1,204
Caster. Think of a shopping cart wheel. It has heavy caster. When you reverse it turns around. Tracking? If that thing isnt "leaned back" far enough it is too responsive. The more its "leaned back" the more it pulls back into a straight line.

Please excuse my lack of words.

Another thing, once something goes, I replace the whole front end. Ball joints. Tie rods. etc. while one part is broke it stresses the others and they will go soon.

Idk your car so I cant be specific. But you get the idea.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 06-07-2015, 04:47 AM
Stretch's Avatar
...like a shield of steel
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Somewhere in the Netherlands
Posts: 14,461
Quote:
Originally Posted by ps2cho View Post
...
I don't quite understand caster quite yet on how to "check" it? Can anyone explain if there is a way I can measure it using the digital level gauge I got?
I'm not 100% sure on your car but I guess it is the same for virtually every other one I've seen - you can measure castor by turning the wheels by 20 degrees from straight ahead one way and then 20 degrees the other - each time you measure the camber and then add the values to get the castor
__________________
1992 W201 190E 1.8 171,000 km - Daily driver
1981 W123 300D ~ 100,000 miles / 160,000 km - project car stripped to the bone
1965 Land Rover Series 2a Station Wagon CIS recovery therapy!
1961 Volvo PV544 Bare metal rat rod-ish thing

I'm here to chat about cars and to help others - I'm not here "to always be right" like an internet warrior



Don't leave that there - I'll take it to bits!
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 06-07-2015, 08:32 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Southern California
Posts: 2,277
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucas View Post
Where are you in socal? Do you offer your services for hire? Lol. I hate the caster settings on most cars.
I don't work on others cars. It's enough of a job to keep up with my own, and I'm not getting any younger.

Duke
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 06-07-2015, 08:46 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Southern California
Posts: 2,277
Quote:
Originally Posted by ps2cho View Post
I don't quite understand caster quite yet on how to "check" it? Can anyone explain if there is a way I can measure it using the digital level gauge I got?
Caster is the difference in camber readings at full right and left lock. It's actually an approximation, but a good one, and the key is to set both sides as equal as possible. I can interpolate my inclinometer to about 1/4 degree.

The car needs to be on a level surface, and most residential garage slabs will suffice.

Camber is measured by placing the inclinometer or whatever angle gage you are using against the wheel flange or tire with the wheels straight ahead.

Then you turn the wheel to full right lock and measure camber. Say it's minus five. Now turn the wheel to full left lock and you measure plus five.

Caster is +5 - (-5) = +10 deg.

It can be tricky getting the algebraic sign correct on a car with near zero caster, but it's easy on Mercs, since most have high positive caster, so you know it's not going to be minus 10.

Duke
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 06-07-2015, 11:12 AM
ps2cho's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Chandler, Arizona
Posts: 3,525
So to clarify, its simply A - B where A and B are the camber readings at full lock?

I went into the WIS and the alignment spec shows:
Quote:
4MATIC Toe in 0 deg 15' (+-10')

Camber at vehicle level
+7.9° ° -0° ( 10'/-30')
+7.2° ° -0° 10' ( 10'/-30')
+6.5° ° -0° 15' ( 10'/-30')
+5.8° ° -0° 23' ( 10'/-30')
+5.1° ° -0° 30' ( 10'/-30')
+4.4° ° -0° 36' ( 10'/-30')
+3.7° ° -0° 43' ( 10'/-30')
+3.0° ° -0° 48' ( 10'/-30')
+2.3° ° -0° 54' ( 10'/-30')
+1.6° ° -1° 00' ( 10'/-30')
+0.9° ° -1° 06' ( 10'/-30')
+0.2° ° -1° 10' ( 10'/-30')
-0.5° ° -1° 15' ( 10'/-30')
-1.2° ° -1° 19' ( 10'/-30')

Permissible difference in caster between right
and left sides of the vehicle
° 30'
Firstly whats the conversion to inches so I can get it right?
Secondly, what does that "at vehicle level" mean on the camber? If you have the front of the vehicle on a ramp or something? Would I just use the +0.2deg, or am I not understanding what it says?

I understand that since my camber+caster are not adjustable -- I just want to check my numbers to take note and to see if anything else could be worn. I believe my issues before were completely bushing related...here's a pic of the bad bushings:



Thanks for the help so far guys!
__________________
2016 Monsoon Gray Audi Allroad - 21k
2008 Black Mercedes E350 4Matic Sport - 131k
2014 Jeep Wranger Unlimited Sahara - 62k
2003 Gray Mercedes ML350 - 122k
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 06-07-2015, 02:55 PM
Lucas's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 1,204
I use a big bar and pry on stuff to check for play/wear. Lift up on the tire. Turn the wheel. Etc.

Front end work can be an art in diagnosis.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 06-07-2015, 08:06 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: TX
Posts: 3,978
to understand caster, look at the front end of a motorcycle, the triple tree is at a forward angle, meaning if 90 is dead straight upwards, the angle of the triple forks intersects the vertical and places itself ahead of the perpendicular.

This provides the stability, the more the angle the higher the caster. To measure it you need a 90 degree point of reference of the spindle (or ball joint), ideally done with a jig that mounts to a solid area of the balljoint housing, e.g. the W124 FSM describes a tool that hangs from the ball joint clamping bolt, the little divot on the bolt ends is provided just for that. It has a string that goes across a scale to indicate caster degrees

In cars where the joint is hidden or unreachable reliably then you can measure with the camber difference.

If you have some slop somewhere in the spindle axis like worn arm bushings, worn ball joints or something that can throw it off - your measurement will be cuckoo.
__________________
2012 BMW X5 (Beef + Granite suspension model)

1995 E300D - The original humming machine (consumed by Flood 2017)
2000 E320 - The evolution (consumed by flood 2017)
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 06-07-2015, 08:08 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: TX
Posts: 3,978
your design is fixed camber/caster - your bushing is shot, your tire is shot from the inside, you have found your fault already.

MB springs are not that poor that they will sag at young age, I had similar wear on my W124 - the fault was ball joints, they were a bit way to sloppy for any standard.

__________________
2012 BMW X5 (Beef + Granite suspension model)

1995 E300D - The original humming machine (consumed by Flood 2017)
2000 E320 - The evolution (consumed by flood 2017)
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On




All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:09 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2024 Pelican Parts, LLC - Posts may be archived for display on the Peach Parts or Pelican Parts Website -    DMCA Registered Agent Contact Page