Request to members in Germany - Klann or SIR spring compressor - Page 3 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

autozen · #31 04-16-2003, 12:11 AM

A couple of years ago I did some consulting work for a shop that predominately worked on products that spewed out of Michigan. They got a Camarro in that needed front spring removal,so I checked my MB factory spring removal tool and the coils were the same diameter. The tool worked perfectely. Perhaps a GM tool may work on a Mercedes and cost less. I don't know.

Peter

dmorrison · #32 04-16-2003, 12:35 AM

amfcorp. Which compressor are you talking about?

The Sir Tool ($550) will do the following Mercedes bodies. 107,116,123,124,126,129,201,202,210 and 140 as per Oliver Sir of Sir tools.

I do not have the Klann tool (Approx $750) so I'm not quite sure which bodies it will do. Since it is of the same basic design I'm sure that it will do the same cars.

The OTC tool ($219 designed for Ford). I know it will NOT do the 123 as per the instructions ( both plates used, compress the spring and remove it from below. vs only one plate, pull the spring up into the spring perch so you can remove the lower control arm). The spring perch hole is to small to get the unit into the spring center. That is not to say that you could use just one plate and pull the spring up tight into the spring perch.

The unit we are trying to build, That I copied the plate size from Sir Tool would be sized to fit the 123 body. With slight changes in the washer sizes it will also do the 126. the 126 has a 2.5 inch openning at the top vs 1 3/4" on the 123. To make it work you have to build 2 plates( the Sir and Klann tool come with 4 total plates). One size for the front and one for the rear. If you read the post on the alternate coil spring compressor you will see that I made ASSUMPTIONS about the size of the 126 rear springs. At $219 for the OTC tool. If you can make it work on both the front and rear 126 and 123 then you would have something there that will probably work on the majority of the Mercedes!!!

Dave

afmcorp · #33 04-16-2003, 03:16 AM

hi dave

i haven't wanted to butt in on the thread but i've been planning a spring change on my 88 126 to the sport springs and bilsteens. i didn't want to open my mouth because sometimes i get swamped and can hardly keep up with the day to day business. so these little personal pleasures seem to always take a back seat.

i have a CNC machine shop so machining anything isn't really a problem. my design that i've boiled this down to is very close to the factory tools using block style plates and a multiple piece center rod with a thrust washer to keep the torques as low as possible and the center rod utilizes an ACME thread. much stronger and a faster turn per inch ratio.

i settled on the acme thread because you can buy the rod already machined and the nuts as well. so this cuts a lot of time off. my biggest obstacle is getting underneath the car and getting the measurements. my 88 has been in my shop since december and i am just getting to the euro lights. (i think i've come up with an easy conversion using the existing us wiper motors and brackets adding 1 - 6 pin receptacle it fits right up to the new fitting using the city lights) anyway...

i don't have a 123 so if you'd like to send me those dimensions i could work up a couple of plates for that size.

i'll keep everyone updated as i get thru this project.

PS: to mike tangas, i'm not sure what part you're working on replacing mike but try jacking the car up first putting a floor stand on the frame, then take the tire off and use your floor jack on the center hub of the front rotor. that way your car can't go anywhere and by using the rotor you're going to get the spring partially collapsed before installing the compressor.

also regarding the center pillar we spoke about i've at least got the material and the pillar in the house and on the kitchen table and it's only taken me 2 weeks. today was our 31st anniversary and we spent it working late and ordering in our dinner.

guys this is a great forum with excellent info flowing thru it so i'm so glad i found this site!

Thomaspin · #34 04-16-2003, 11:44 AM

If the lower OTC plate circular section is 3.5" diameter and the inner MB spring is 3.75" diameter*, that allows 0.25" of sideways play.

My first reaction was that that's too much as the upper plate is 5.25" wide vs. MB's 5" OD on the spring. Also 0.25". So wouldn't you run the risk that the upper plate could, with sideways motion of 0.25", fall into the spring under tension? Or does the 3.75" dimension on the upper plate preclude sideways motion as the upper and lower plates are effectively locked together by the pin and, at 3.75", the upper plate would be a perfect fit in the MB's 3.75" ID?

Your thoughts would be appreciated, but if I'm correct, above, the tool should work on the MB front springs.

BTW I'm intrigued to see what Craif (afmcorp) comes up with - he's an expert machinist.

* Not sure if I'm reading you right - I get the sense that the upper plate is either 3.75" or 3.5" narrow).

stevebfl · #35 04-16-2003, 12:00 PM

The problem with making the plates is that they do not sit perpendicular to the center line of the spring. They must conform to the angle of the coil (which changes as they are compressed.

Quite some channel should be allowed for; I don't think 1/8in is deep enough. The pivot on the center bolt will also have to pivot.

dmorrison · #36 04-16-2003, 12:39 PM

Thomaspin
I have to leave on a trip. I'll be back tonight. Have to go to Las Vegas and back.
I want to explain some of the limitations of the OTC unit while using it.
Dave

dmorrison · #37 04-16-2003, 10:47 PM

A short post for tonight.
The OTC unit could present some problems. The half domed shape unit that would be at the bottom the spring is to large to slip between the coils. So it would have to be dropped down from the top. Then held some how so that you can slip the treadded rod through the plate then the ball and then place the pin that goes into the half dome and through the treaded rod. All of this at the bottom of the coils spring which is very difficult to get your fingers into.
I have other ideas BUT!!!!!!!

My company, American Airlines, just missed the bullet with the Flight Attendant vote. They voted to accept the concessions instead of going into chapter 11 bankruptsy. I have a bottle of wine, Spatlese actually, with my name on it that needs drinking. Its been a tough 2 days.

Dave

suginami · #38 04-17-2003, 01:07 PM

Aaaaahhhh, nothing like a bottle of German Riesling, my favorite wine. I usually drink Kabinett (dry), but a botle of Spatlese (off-dry) is great with the right meal.

dmorrison · #39 04-18-2003, 01:57 AM

I'm drawing up a design for a compressor that I thing will solve all the problems we have thought of for this tool. Should be rather easy to mill and drill for anyone who has a milling/lathe machine in his garage. hint hint

I'll try to finish it up. Post it here and get everyones input.

Dave

afmcorp · #40 04-18-2003, 02:44 PM

good morning

i just finished a cad drawing of the plate design i've been thinking about. I've converted it to a corel draw 8 and it printed fine but i've yet to get it to a bit map type image so i can post it direct. my website isn't complete so i can't anchor it there yet. if you want to see a copy PM me your fax number and i will send it asap.

or if you can see dfx files i can send that format!!

well it won't accept HTML so i'll try another format. i also have it in PDF acrobat format.

i can't get it converted to jpeg, bitmap or gif so let me know if you want a copy.

to dave: can you confirm to me the dimensions for the springs front and rear if you have them on the 123
tks
craig

dmorrison · #41 04-19-2003, 02:06 AM

Craig I will get you the dimensions tomorrow, Saturday
I will get them for the 123 and 107. Do you need the 126?
Dave

dmorrison · #42 04-19-2003, 02:21 AM

Craig
I will get you the dimensions saturday.
Do you need the 107 and 126 as well as the 123?
Dave

dmorrison · #43 04-19-2003, 03:02 AM

Guys
This is a rough sketch of the coil spring compressor ideas that I had.
Everyone please feel free to critique the design.
The guys with the metal machines . Let me know which is easiest to build.
Those experienced with metal. How would the welding effect the strength of the Grade 8 bolt in design number 2 of the bolt.

The most difficult part of designing the compressor is getting the lower plate around the bolt and having it lock in place some how. Sir Tools and Klann have a good design.

The dimensions of the plate, bolt and grooves to hold the spring will have to be finalized. The bolt will be a grade 8 bolt of 18" or so. I can have it cut here in the DFW area. The plate lenght and width will be a size that hopefully will allow it to be used on all the Mercedes bodies that the Sir Tool can be used on.

This will require dimensions from springs of the 123,107,126,124,etc.etc.
The dimension needed will be the maximum diameter of the coil spring, front and rear suspensions. The diameter of the coil, and the dimension from center of the coil to the center of the opposite side coil. This can actually be calculated with the first two dimensions.

I am also hoping we can design the plates to handle both the front and rear spring sizes.

The sketch.

The plate has a hole that is off center, hole A. This is to allow the bolt head to be passed through the plate. You drop the bolt down in hole A so that notch B on the bolt aligns with slot B on the plate. You slide the bolt all the way over to the middle hole C in the plate. Then you raise the bolt untill the head of the bolt rests against the plate bottom. Notch B on the bolt will now be above the plate and the C section of the bolt will be in hole C in the plate. Since the bolt C section is larger than slot B the bolt can not slide back to hole A.
This concept was used on both bolts. We won't have to worry about the bolt coming out of the plate.
Now to prevent the bolt from rotating I have design 1 and design 2. the top bolt design, 1, uses a recieving shape that will be milled into the bottom of the plate. This design will allow the bolt head to rest 1/8 of an inch into the plate. Because the recess is the shape of the bolt head it will not allow the bolt to rotate. This is how Sir tool does it. Look at the pictures of the Sir Tool plates above.
However this does remove material from the plate which does weaken it. A balance has to be obtained here.
Design 2, the lower one. Uses a cog to hold the bolt still. The cog is just smaller the than slot B ( We want these units to slide and move). When inserting the bolt to the plate you lower the bolt head through hole A. With the cog sliding through slot B. Lower the bolt head so that cut B on the bolt can slide through slot B on the plate to the center hole. Once you have the bolt in the center hole, C you rotate the bolt 180 degrees so that when you pull the bolt up to set the bolt head against the plate, the cog slides into slot B on the plate. This will prevent the bolt from rotating while compressing the spring.
The concern with this design. The cog must be cut, not a real problem. But then welded to the bolt. I 'm not sure about the effects of the welding heat on the grade 8 bolt?

Well, did I confuse you?????

What do you think. If I had a milling/lathe machine I would build this.

What size bolt do you recommend for this kind of force?
That will determine the size of the A plate hole. Which may determine strength. As well as spring size adaptability. I was hoping to be able to do all sizes with 2 plate.

The arcs on the plates will be 1/8th inches deep. This should hold the spring compressor in the "center". The size of the groove will be determined by the variations in outer/inner diameter of the springs from the different body styles.

One other consept. Instead of having a bolt head shape. We could cut the bolt head down to the same size as the bolt shaft. it would have a inverted T shape. Then the round A hole ( don't take it personally) would be a rectangular slot. It would be an extension of the B slot. you would slide the "bolt head" down through the elongated B slot. Rotate the bolt 90 degrees and the the bottom of the plate would have a cut out like the on for design 1, the top bolt, but it would be rectangular.
This design, I worry about the strength of whats left of the bolt head.

I will discuss the top plate in the next post

Dave

dmorrison · #44 04-19-2003, 03:36 AM

Ok
The top plate is relatively easy compared to the bottom. As you see it is a 3/8 metal plate with the same groove milled into it that will be done to the bottom plate. The size has to be determined,
The center hole will be the same size a the A hole ( again don't take it personally) so the bolt head can slip through the top plate as you are assembling the coil spring compressor.
If you look at the side diagram, this is how I think the top bolt should be shaped.
Because the bolt shaft will be smaller than the opening A. I was thinking of a "centering " system so the threads of the bolt are not damaged while compressing the spring. If not held in the center of the A hole ( oh never mind) then they could be damaged.
The nut needs to have a large amount of threads gripping the threads of the bolt. To little threads holding the nut and bolt together means the unit flys apart.
This is what caused the Alaska Airlines MD-80 crash off the California coast. Lack of grease on the screw and the crew kept forcing the trim system to work. They wore down the treads and the aerodynamic forces on the screw stripped the nut off the bolt and the T tail came off the aircraft with it.
I digress!!
I would consider a 2-3 inch long coupling nut if we can get it out of Grade 8.
To center the bolt shaft in the hole. A washer could be cut with a tube that will go down the A hole. This will center the bolt shaft and with enough grease we should be ok. If the nut is large enough it could be turned on a lathe so the bottom of the nut fit into the A hole and a washer would add more surface for tightneing. The washer could only be 1 5/8 " max to allow the washer to fit in the 123 spring perch hole. Unless another car had a spring perch hole that was smaller.
The washer assembly could be welded to the nut.

One last tool. To get to the top tightening nut I designed a tool that would allow you to use a rachet, not a impact wrench, to much force.
Either use a plumbers tube. They make long tubes for plumbers that are hollow and have certain size "sockets" stamped into the ends of the tube. We would have to find the right size and lenght.
Or you take some square or round steel stock that has a inner diameter larger than the bolt shaft diameter. Weld a socket on one end and a bolt on the other. Make sure its long enough so the bolt shaft doesn't reach the top bolt. The top bolts will be used to apply your rachet to tighten or loosen the coil spring. The socket will have to be cut to allow the bolt shaft to continue through it.

Well critique away.

Dave

Chris Martens · #45 04-19-2003, 01:13 PM

Thomas,

Sorry, I'm a bit late :-)

Klann is expencive, even in Germany. If I remember right, the normal price for the spring compressor is at 600 Euro / USD including value added tax.

May be we can save the vat because the parts are for export. But you have to add freight and customs. We are not going to label a parcel containing 10 or more spring compressors as a "gift". :-)

If you are still interested in a "Parcel from Germany" (so far no one jumped on and asked for a Klann in this thread), send me an email and I will ask for the price next week.

I have an american friend here in Berlin so payment via an US bank may be possible. My german bank will charge me 10-15 Euro / USD for a foreign check, but if you are willing to pay some hundred USD for the compressor I think you will pay the bank fees as well.

best regards,
bis denn,
Christian