There is no comparison. In 1998 I purchased a Lexus ES300 and for the most part have had no major work done to it other than regular maintenance. Finally had to get the rear seal replaced due to a oil leak problem. At this point there is around 170K mi on the vehicle and its beginning to show wear in handling and engine, but still a very good auto.

2 months ago I purchased a mercedes '91 300E well maintained with 210K mi. Driving this vehicle is simply unbelievable. Although the Lexus has more power and better stock audio, the MB beats it comfort wise and attention hands down. At 210K mi I had it up to 110mi/hr on the interstate and she purred like a kitten. Every day I am simply more amazed how well this auto functions over against the Lexus.

Just wanted to add my 2 cents worth.

Interesting post, this. Exactly the same debate is going on in the UK. Without doubt the German prestige manufacturers are struggling against the Japanese onslaught and their quality is suffering as a result. I remember reading somewhere that Mercedes used to expend almost as many man-hours in rectifying and fettling an S Class than Lexus did in building an LS400 outright. Now this may be an exaggeration, but the point is clear. With the very high total employment costs in Germany, the prestige manufacturers could not afford to continue building cars in the way that they had been and keep their prices remotely competitive.

I drive an old Mercedes and an old BMW. I love them both and appreciate the quality of engineering design and workmanship that went into both. The SL has done 117000 miles and the BMW 125000. They drive almost without fault. I can't see the latest equivalents lasting that long, more due to the fact that in 20 years nobody will still have the computers to be able to fix them, rather than the fact that they'll be worn out.

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bobw
1983 380SL
1991 BMW 735iSE

Being a Porsche owner and a Mercedes owner, I can say the issue isn't so much the competition. The reason being that Porsches are presently being built with the same crappy quality as current Mercedes products. But the difference being the fact that Porsche does not have even half as much competitors. Nonetheless, the same is happening to Porsche wich leads me to the conclusion that competition isn't the reason for the drop in quality. The common denominator here is German manufacturers forgetting to be German. They are acting more like Asian maunufaturers where the latest trend is more important than quality. After all, they no longer want to build cars that last forever. Like the Asians and American builders, they are interested in building cars that are designed not to last. This with the aid of constant design changes to appeal to the tasteless, leads buyers to new cars which in the end increses the volume. The triple decade durability Benz or Porsche that appeals to the owner who intends to keep it for a decade, is no longer a goal. They want to go after the buyer who does not know Benz or Porsche of old. The type of buyer who knows only the badge. Porsche itself mentioned quietly a few years ago that building cars that last forever wasn't a very good idea for profits. In essence, they are prostituting themselves and alienating the loyalists in the process. Not just with quality, but with styling as well. I think this will go on for a little longer until it catches up to them. Then they will have to look for their roots or wither. Playing the Lexus and Accura game is not the answer. The answer is to do what you have done for 100 years and never forget that form follows function. Working in that manner, the loyalty remains. Even through lean times. I don't mind paying the money, nor do I care for some electronic doo dad. I want a solid, no nonsense vehicle that lasts. The only catch is that the "conoisseur" is becoming an endangered species. Good taste and knowledge is no longer an abundant resource among the public. Unfortunately the Germans figured this out to the detriment of the knowledgeable and loyal. Hopefully the newbies will eventually become knowledgeable and expect the Mercedes cars we have been driving for years. To me the last were the W124, W140 and the previous generation SL. Everything else is crap.

I've owned some crappy used cars in the past like '79 Honda CCVC hatchback, '78 Dodge Aspen and my favorite '84 Mercury Topaz. When the Topaz died I decided to go with a German manufacturer to change things up.

I "settled" on the 190e and have been happy ever since. To me it was just a used car....but to my passengers it was a very different ride. They remarked about how solid the ride was. Cruising the hwy was like floating on glass. Even the doors closed shut with an authoritative "thump".

These were remarks from new Toyota Camry, C230 and ML 320 owners. After riding in their new cars I too can feel the difference. Who knew a 14 year old baby-benz can impress huh? Sad to see that recent MB's don't feel as solid anymore.

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Mike
1989 190E 2.6 98K

I want to agree with the poster of a bit ago who laments the fact that it's difficult to get your problems fixed when they occur.
I have a '97 W210 car which has had the head gasket problem repaired 3 times! I had to point out to the dealer tech that he should not use re-use the headbolts! I recently had no cooling and was told that the car needed its AC system re-charged but no leak could be found. Three weeks later, there was no cooling again but this time the EC light did not come on so i thought it was probably comething different. Again the dealer recharged the system saying that I had an evaporator leak and that would be $3900 to repair. I said no and opted for the opinion of an independent. No leak found and car has cooled fine all summer. I had some front end vibration problems and irregular wear on tires. After research on this site, I thought it might be the front lower control arm bushing problem. Took to both local dealers and asked to have these checked. Both said nothing wrong with bushings but one said I needed new ball joints. Problem was not fixed by replacing these so I went back, insisted that they put it on the lift and let me watch while they pried with a big bar - the bushings were mush! The only satisfaction I got out of that is that the dealer tech broke their $1300 press tool while trying to replace the bushings and they ended up giving me entire new control arm assemblies. I love the car. It looks and feels brand new after 6 plus years. But my wife thinks I'm crazy to think about another Benz.

I guess Mercedes, among most of German automakers, just thought pretige is everything, which in their mind will buy consumer loyalty. I don't think so, not with the crappy quality and snotty coustomer service. My 98 E320 was fun to drive and comfortable; however, it was problem plagued and ill fated at the same time. Yesterday, I finally had to say to myself enough is enough, and I sold the car, my heart and soul, to a used car dealship at loss both financially and psychologically. It was a really hard day for me and difficult to let go, but the car was just in such a deteriorating state that even while I was on my way to the dealership things kept breaking down. Here's a brief narration of some of the items failed in the past two days before I sold the car. At first, the turn signal failed to work, which almost caused someone to rear end my car. It was the turn signal lever that didn't work, not the faulty light bulbs I had just replaced couple of months back. After that, the wind shield wiper, windshield fluid, headlamp switch all failed to function- it was a nightmare to drive home at night from work without lamps and turn signals. Then, right rear passger window, which I just had the regulator replaced couple days before, failed to operate too. Yesterday morning, when I had to dirve to work, I found out that my rear left passanger window refused to roll up. So in a state of despair and agony, I called in sick, located a used car dealership throught yellow page, and drove the car over and sold it. It was just a nightmare during these five years. Now I think I have so much hatred and negativity toward Mercedes as I do to eating vegetable. Talk about the total cost of owning a Mercedes over a five year period. I have more repair and dianostic reciepts on my desk than regular service documentations. So buyer beware. If you are thinking about purchasing a Mercedes, please consider my plea and story to reflect if a name is really that important when purchasing a product. If you are going through the same hurtle as I was before, you should snap out of self-denial and reconsider whether it's worth it to sacrifice you time, money, and energy to just look good in front of people while you pocket is bleeding dry. If you have lots of money, if you have all the time in the world to convince yourself that after ten years of fixing your Mercedes it will measure up to its name, Good Luck. I do apologize for my rudeness if I offend some of the Mercedes loyalists on the forum. Just trying to share my side of story. No harm intended.

Nah, I look at this issue as a box of apple or orange. There is always a few bad ones in every box. I didn't spend too much time or money on my 18 years old 560SEL or the 95 S500 coupe. Spent more on toys I put in them.

Farewell My E- I used to call it my Lil' B though it's not small- ......Farewell....................Farewell...

Another note is that just as I thought BMW now safe to buy and has a better quality than Mercedes, a BMW associate accidentally revealed to me otherwise. Yesterday when I sold my car, I walked over to a BMW dealership next to it, thinking may be BMW is now a more reliable car. Here's the conversation I had with the BMW sales associate.

Sales Associate: We, BMW, are one of the most reliable car in the market, rank number five this year in JD Power's Quality Study, outperformer the Mercedes. You should really consider buying a 5-series this year.

I: What does the warranty cover on a BMW car?

Sales Associate: A lot. 4 yrs/ 50000mile bumper to bumper, including wear adn tare items....(and blah, blah, and blah on with lots of adjetives and verbs)

I: What happens when the warranty ends ?

Sales Associate: ( eyeing left and right, making sure that no one could over hear our conversation) To tell you the truth, you are on you own.

I: (looking surprised and speechless)

Sales Associate: well....... you look like a guy who gets a new car every four or five years so I don't think you will have any problem. Just bring the car back after five years, and I'll give you a good deal on another car.

At the end, I was very disappointed about hearing this and so was the sales associate who thought I was ready to plunge into yet another hurtle.

It's pretty obvious that if not all, most of the companies are going to path to put more electronic gadgets in their products. If quality control is still there, shouldn't be a problem, but who knows? Seemed to me everyone is cutting corner here and there.

Gadgets are the enemy of reliability. I have had some problems lately with my 91 300E. But all stupid things. Nothing that would leave me by the side of the road. One was a new ac push button console and the other an overhead ac temperature sensor. Nothing major. Mechanically, all I have had to spend money on were a radiator a few years ago, a head gasket that had a slow leak when I bought the car but lasted years in that form and a serpentine belt tensioner. The transmission will soon need a rebuild, but it still working ok. All in all, these are just wear items considering it has been driven for over ten years. After all, what do I care. I picked it up for 14K back in 98. At that price I ended up with a bunch of money for incidentals. Beats the hell out of some other comparable Japanese vehicle with the same expenditure. At the time, my wilfe was driving a Honda Accord, which was reliable since new, but was starting to deteriorate. By deterioration, I don't mean just mechanical items. I mean paint and overall appearance also. The Mercedes, on the other hand, looks no more than two years old. I carry a Rottweiler in the back seat of the 300E and the leather does not show one flaw. After all, it's a German taxi cab. But one has to keep in mind that this is a W124. There are no power cup holders, heated seats and other frivolous stupidities to break down. My other two cars, an 80 Porsche 911SC and an 88 Carrera are probably the cheapest cars I have ever had in terms of maintenance and repair costs. It also helps that they don't depreciate. They are about as reliable as a concrete foundation. All they require are changes of wear items like tires, brake pads, oil and filters. The secret is a body that is built like a tank, sound and simple mechanical systems which are handcrafted and no unnecessary electronics. Sure, once in a while something will break and will cost a hefty sum. But as with any air cooled Porsche, once something is repaired, it will not break again for at least ten years. I know because the 80SC I have owned since 91 and goes to the track every other weekend. To my eyes, the W124 starts to approach these cars in simplicity and build quality. There is no mystery here folks. Keep it simple stupid. Go buy an old 240D and see. There is a reason why those cars are the taxi cabs of choice in third world countries. I want luxury in the appearance, materials, and solid feel. To me, power options are not luxury items. The sad part is that if one buys something built after 95, no matter what brand, they are in for it. Every time I go the track with my 80 Porsche, someone is amazed that the car is still going strong with over 220,000 miles without a rebuild. Then they mention, wow, I will go and get a Boxster or 996 then. I tell them good luck. Why? To think that a Boxster will even approach classic 911 reliability over the long term is the same as thinking a late model E320 will approach a 240D's reliability. Or even a 300E's. What is the key here? Buy a mint or close to mint Mercedes or Porsche that was built before computers and other junk came into play, save a bunch of money, and use the money that is left over to put whatever is wrong in good shape. It makes sense. Why get an E55 when you can get a 500E for less money, less depreciation, less to go wrong, far better build quality and far better looks in my opinion. And if something breaks, no matter what it costs, you have yours savings to pay for the repair. Besides, I refuse to support the recent lunacy in the design department of those two Stuttgart manufacturers.

well put!

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1987 300SDL (324000)

1986 Porsche 951 (944 Turbo) (166000)

1978 Porsche 924 (99000)

1996 Nissan Pathfinder R50 (201000)

I remember reading an article in Auto Week in the early 1980's and they were talking about the 450 SL. They said that it was a terrible sports cars, but no car got more attention pulling up to your country club than a 450 SL. They concluded people buy the car for the image.

When Lexus came to CA they were offering incredible terms on financing and cash strapped Californians went for it. I remember asking a MBZ salesman why doesn't MBZ offer something like Lexus and he said that MBZ owners can find their own financing.
The dealership isn't a bank.

Now on the MBZ commercials they talk about how affordable the C class is.

If you question the quality of Mercedes-Benz, you don't deserve to have one.

Serious though, when you look at all the other brands, it would appear, everybody has problems of their own.
In the quest to out-do each other with gadgets, often times the very basics are overlooked.
Case in point, automatic transmissions were almost indestructable, until electronics were added. Today we see transmissions self-destructing because of some faulty " program " .
I see & hear horror stories just about every day, regardless of what make the vehicle is.

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2007 C 230 Sport.

Good Morning All
I think we can all learn a great deal from the Japanese. At the close of W.W. II they were a broken and defeated nation. Instead of laying down and quitting they rebuilt their nation with a mindset of determination and perseverence. In the old days their products were indeed inferior. They placed a code of excellence both to improve and devised a work ethic that is second to none. My father-in-law has a 30 year old Seiko watch that has been battered and beaten - yet runs perfectly. My opinion is that the world needs to wake up or the Japanese will continue to dominate all areas they choose to.


Robert Davis

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Robert Davis

Ah, yes.
Hat's off to the masters of industrial espionage & copy cats.

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2007 C 230 Sport.