I don't want to beat an old horse to death, but I would like to hear from some of the many master techs out there on the issue of MB quality. There has been much said about the quality of the late models - many complaints of problems and cheap feel.
If this is so why from a car maker so renowned for quality and with a history of marvelous cars? Other threads have mentioned competition with the Japanese. Just wanted to hear from the experts in the trenches.

Robert Davis

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Robert Davis

I guess I would look at the price competition. I remember how much a 1985 300E cost when new. A brand new 2003 E320 is not that much more, considering that almost 20 years have passed.

Something had to give.

I think it is Lexus. They give people what they want in terms of quality. Everything that the average person touches or feels is fantastic -- at a reasonable price. What you don't touch or feel is plastic -- albeit well engineered and reliable plastic. Over time, Mercedes has adopted the same approach.

The 300E was a car. One that would go forever if well maintained. My E430, while nice and reliable etc, is simply no match. Just look at the number of rattles in these new cars. My guess is that it is all the plastic and cheap fasteners behind the nice leather and wood. My 1992 500 sl is as quiet as new.

I appreciate the quality of the 300E and 500 SL. I appreciate the built to last engineering. My E430 is a lexus with a different badge. (Still love the car though).

In fairness to Mercedes, they had no choice. People are superficial and they are the ones shelling out the money. Accountants won this battle behind the scenes.

My two cents.


Mike

Mike G,

That may be the most accurate account I have read yet regarding this issue. I've driven them all - from an E230 Kompressor to W140s all the way down to my old w114 car. The older ones have a feel to them that just isn't captured in the newer models. Yes, the new generation cars are faster, handle better, shift smoother and are more comfortable. But some things are missing.

Here some my gripes: The instrumentation is TERRIBLE. The blue electronic lighting is chintzy, and the layout of the new C's dash look almost exactly like mid 80's GM pickups! The seat cushions are thinner and the leather does not feel as durable. The grills are plastic. Flakey cupholders as well as other convienance features which would be more at home in a buick.

116/123/124/107/126 - These are the products from when MBZ was at its peak.

Mike

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'90 300SE 298k
-300K and it gets put into retirement.
'80 300D 255k Purchased new by family in 1980.

Had a:
1973 220 (gas)
1980 300SD
1992 400E

I noticed all this in the new C we bought. The damm leather around the gearshift tore already but was covered under warranty.

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99 C43
98 S420
99 C230K
01 C240

Its not just accountants winning the battle against the engineers.

Until the end 80s, Mercedes was happily making TRULY luxury cars, marvelously designed and engineered, and it was pretty much the only game in town (BMW was much smaller, hardly a rival across all segments, Lexus, Infiniti, Acura, etc were not there). They had no incentive to be "efficient" in their manufacturing processes, so they made the best they could, put a "cost plus profit" price tag on it, and people bought it - they hardly had any choice.

Lexus, obviously, changed the rules of the game. Like all other Japanese manufacturers, they were far more cost efficient, and much more quality/reliability conscious. The result was that they produced luxury cars that were 20%-30% cheaper than their German rivals. Obviously many people switched.

Today, the reality is that in the 30-40K price segment, the lexuses and Acuras are far better cars than their German rivals - the Germans just do not have the efficiencies to manufacture a luxury car for 30K. 50K? maybe. 80K? Yes.

Japanese cars are getting better and better. German brands, especially Mercedes, is getting more and more diluted (Chrysler, etc.).

If Mercedes doesn't do something fast, they have a serious risk of losing their brand value, something they created over 100 years.

I drive an old mercedes, and there is nothing like that car. But the newer ones are really not as good. I used to be an ardent Mercedes fan, but really, other than emotional reasons, I cannot find enough reasons today to buy a new mercedes over a new japanese car (again, I am talking about the under 50K segment - above that is still a German stronghold, though it may not be so for long).

So its not just accountant hammering down on the engineers (BTW, I am an engineer myself, not an accountant!!). Its market realities, and the ability/inability of companies to react to it, and competition - when the field gets crowded, you just cannot afford to slacken anymore!!

I have always admired quality and desired to own a Benz. I spent a lot of time looking at the history of Benz through books and magazines. I chose the 300E for a number of reasons. The straight six is clean and easy to work on, the interior is spartan yet the instrument gauges I think are especially nice. The overall body style is clean and simple. I know this model sometimes has climate control issues and head gasget problems but I know I will probably keep this car far beyond engine rebuilds etc. because I like its overall look. Maybe its resale "value" is low, but it is a Benz and to me it still says quality. I would rather have it than a new Honda or Toyota.

Robert Davis

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Robert Davis

Nobody is questioning the quality of the older benzes. Robert, you are probably in the 0.01% of car owners who can work on their cars themselves, so that keeping a 10+ year old car is a feasible thought. For the rest of us (99.99% of car owners), keeping a 10+ year old car is a big headache, generally.

As to the toyota and honda's, compare the 2004 Accord to the C240 (which is 10K more expensive, equally loaded) - except for the NAME - honda versus Mercedes - it would be foolish a buy a C240.

Again, I am not talking about the older benzes, but the current ones - the C-class and the M-class - are a POS. The E-class is still a fine vehicle, but 55 grand? That's a bit too much. S-class is another ballgame altogether, and as I said earlier, in that segment the Germans are still ahead.

What lexus can give you in a 30K car, Mercedes cannot give you even in a 40K car. That's a fact.

My 18 years old 560SEL is still running like new except the worn look of the dark blue leather. The air con is still harmful to ozone but still cold and the heated seats still heat. Pretty much bulletproof except the normal wear and tear. And the 8 years old S500 coupe is still running fine and everything is still looking nearly new except the darn phone needed to be replaced! I am not sure I would get another Mercedes unless the quality issues are taken care of.

I would have to agree with you guys for the most part. Very nice written perspectives. The only thing I would like to point out is that it's really the japanese market's fault that things have turned out the way they have. As mentioned they are coming out with such rival cars for so much cheaper... and for reasons that concern quality. Now that the efficiency war created by the japanese market is going on, MB has been dragged in to fight a game they're not used to... a game I'm sure many of us wish they do not have to fight. Honestly I find it sad that MB has to stoop top such low levels, but that's how the business works.

Look at BMW... it's affecting them too. Although I am an MB guy, I still love the Bavarian cousin. You can see how things have progessed.. for example in the Bimmer world, the E30 is a legendary classic built on performance and qulaity. The E36 as well, it's a high qulaity car that has been very successful and popular.. once again with a simple design. Then you get into the E46 which has started to tumble. Remember all the problems with the E46 M3 engines? I have been hearing a strong crowd of voices from the Bimmer side admitting that the E46 isn't what it should be and that it has turned out to be more of a dissapointment. Unfortunately even with high hopes, the truth speaks loudly and the problems are progressing... look even at the new 750's... I won't even start with their problems.

It may be a matter of pride, but I still can't even imagine myself driving a Lexus anytime in the near future... the name itself makes me shudder and the only thing it brings to mind is "wannabe mercedes". Right now for me, a good ole W124 suits me just fine

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-Kevin

I drive a 1994 C180 Euro model, its auto, Elegance with all the good trim but without leather and cruise. I found that this car had a lot of neglected problems from the PO. I still feel that I cannot get a better car anywhere. Its already got 194,000kms and it feels like "new". The interior is almost new looking and the body and paintwork is better than a 9 year old "other" car. Problems were all mileage related, but ignored by the PO. Things like water pump, aircon, vacuum, suspension had to be examined and fixed or replaced. Otherwise, I am very happy with the ride, safety and how I feel driving the car when we pull up next to other cars. They always look and wonder if it is expensive? New? They don't think I look the type who can afford it also! Thats nice. What more can I say? Mercedes has tried to cut their production cost and asking prices, but also appears to have cut down on the quality of things they put into the cars like trims, equiptment, assessories and so on. Many of these things they don't make themselves, all farmed out to friendly companies some good some questionable.

My 2cents worth.

I'm sorry, but I have to jump in here. The problem with the world today is GREED. I have and old 84 500 SEL with 250,000 miles and it is the finest car I have ever owned. MB desided in 1992 to stoop to the same level as all the other car makers and try to get some more of the market share. To do this, the quality had to decline, because quality cost money. I was told that in 84 my car would have cost between 70 & 80K. (it is loaded). At that time, you could but most any car for less than 20K. Now why can't MB be happy with their fine cars, do research to make them even better (not more junk to break), keep their reputation as making the finest cars in the world, and be happy. If you look around as you drive , you will see old MB everywhere, still going strong. Just think how good a new one could be if only they had been refined even more instead of being replaced by JUNK.
As it is said down hear in the south east, MB made the desision to make cheap cars to compete with Japan when they really didn't need to, and it will come back and "Bite them in the but".

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84 500 SEL (307,xxx miles)

This sounds like - "Oh, I was happily selling my product at whatever price I could charge, until competition came along, how horrible for the consumer, he now had a choice! and got much lower prices! what can be worse than that!!".

How can you blame the Japanese for pushing these carmakers into more efficiencies and cost savings? That's good for the consumers, right? Oh, mercedes has been dragged into a race they are not "used to". Well, they better get used to it, and get used to it pretty fast - their market share is dropping, steadily! Sounds like a lazy athlete saying - "Oh, I am used to running 5 minute miles, and in 1902, I used to WIN based on 5 minute miles - but now these harder working athletes have come, and they run 4 minute miles, and that's unfair, I have to work harder now".

Mercedes should pay more attention to quality/reliability issues. They are hitting rock bottom on that (on NEW cars, again, I am not questioning cars older than 10 years). They also better start providing customers with some "value". Do you know that a CD player is an "option" on the M-class? Now come on, don't be SO cheap. Its a 40 grand plus vehicle, give the customer SOMETHING for it. Especially when others are giving FAR more, for the same price (or lesser).

Mercedes is just not as efficient as Toyota or Honda. You can't blame Toyota or Honda for raising the bar. You gotto blame Mercedes for not keeping up.

Compared to what? Lexus, BMW, Mazda, Toyota, VW? Lets face it, in the quest for cheaper build costs, everyone has picked up issues.

BMWs eat window regulators as bad as 210 cars, if not worse, Lexus has that lovely V6 that cokes up, Mazda had Ford engine management systems and transmissions. Toyota has squeaks, ugly cars and the same coking issues along with window regulators that Lexus does. VW eats regulators and has a few engines with 40K timing belt replacement intervals! Old school engineering has gone out the window.

Yes, MB has quality problems, we all know that. You can blame it on the vendors, engineers, designers or whatever but I think most of it falls to wanting to be the first to market with any new, high tech thingy. This is cool but, they really need to real world test the stuff before turning it loose on JQP. The interiors are fine, not the same level of fit and finish as the older stuff but, adequate. Personally I think the door panels are better than the older cars while the dash pads and consoles are worse, pretty much balances out. Noises are as much a lowering of frequency that bodys are tuned to as anything.

Personally I think the bigger issue for all manufacters is in the ability of techs to both understand and repair these high tech marvels. Afterall if your car breaks thats fine, if you cant get it fixed quickly and correctly thats not fine..... period. (those of you with 211 cars and "gateway" issues know what I'm talking about)




Joe

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Project Smoker, '87 603 powered wagon
Hauler, 96 CTD can you say torque?
Toy 73 Cougar xr7 convertible
Acme Automotive Inc.
Raleigh NC
919-881-0364

I think its more than just competition. I think that it is a change in philosphy. Mercedes used to build its cars with the philosphy that they would last for forever. As Mercedes goes mining for new (mainstream) customers, this philosophy and pride has gone out the window. New Mercedes buyers are not interested in what the cost of maintaining the car will be in 20 years. It seems most of them lease these cars and then move on.

Mercedes has changed direction. Models change after only a few years. Parts are getting more and more expensive. The cars are becoming unnecessarily complex.

I guess the thing I love about my 1992 500 SL is the low (yes low) cost of maintaining this car. I believe the reason is that the car was designed to last. It was understood that many of the parts would need to be replaced and rebuilt. This also is a reason that the car holds its value. People do not run when they see a 100 K Mercedes -- however they do when they see a 100k lexus or BMW. Look at the prices. This is all changing and I can only imagine what it will cost to keep a 2003 E class on the road twenty years from now. God forbid we even think of the cost of repairing the retractible roof of a new sl 10 years from now.

Look at the price of parts for cars like mine. We complain, but they are relatively low. Vacuum pumps, a water pumps, alternators, suspension parts etc. are all reasonably priced. It costs about $400 in parts to rebuild the front suspension. I do not think that $400 will buy even the struts on any lexus or BMW. For God's sake, a Mercedes steering box (rebuilt) is about $400.00. I think that this is true for three reasons. 1) Models were produced for a long time before major changes, 2) Models shared many parts and 3) parts were designed to be rebuilt.

Lexus changed much of this. It is a nightmare in this regard. I had an LS400 that rarely broke down, but when it did it was disastrous. I needed an AC compressor that cost $1000 for the part alone. No rebuilt units were available (Maybe this has changed since 1997?). What does a transmission on an LS400 cost? Steering rack?

A rebuilt transmission for my 500SL is about $1300.00. This is because Mercedes transmissions are DESIGNED to be rebuilt. When my 1995 740 blew a trans, the bill was $5000 (for a factory reconditioned unit). I searched for a company that would rebuild the trans, and no trans shop in Chicago would touch it. I was told that they were not designed to be opened up and rebuilt, except by ZF. I am sure that a transmission for the previous model, the 735, was much less money.

Here is my point. The junkyard is full of good japanese cars that required a major repair, but were junked because it was not cost efficient to do so. I am not an engineer, but I think the new philospohy, which BMW and Mercedes are adopting, places little emphasis on owners down the foodchain. That spells disaster for people who will own these cars 20 years from now.

In the end, we only put money in our cars because of the value they retain after the repair. As this disposable (replace rather than rebuild) philosphy grows, I think it will certainly affect the value of these new cars down the line.

Just look at the price of a 1995 Lexus LS 400. Almost perfect examples can be had for less than $10,000. Find an S class in same condition in that price range -- won't happen. Granted S class cost more when new, but today the difference in cost between a new LS 430 and an S430 is much much less.

Sorry for the rambling,

Mike

I agree with you, but in the same way your statement agreed with mine in an indirect way. Read it again. I may have worded it like I'm blaming the japanese side of the market in a bad way... which I'm not really trying to imply, I'm simply stating that in an indirect way, the japanese efficiency side of things are the cause of some MB quality issues. Sure MB has to deal with it now because it isn't apractice they previously used, and obviously aren't as good at the efficiency game as some of the other makes, but like it or not in an indirect effect, the entry of the japanese competition is what made MB start pulling back their anchors.

Your quote you were making of "I can sell my product at whatever price I want" is/was partially true. I mean, obviously they weren't pushing prices out into the side of being rediculous but they were pretty much setting their own standards in the market because of the lack of competition... people didn't have all these other companies to compare to. Because of this they were allowed to spend freely enough to build at such high standards of quality and make profit. The entry of the japanese market was set as efficient and smart right from the start. That's the best plan of attack, and so MB starts pulling their anchors in and playing a new efficiency game because of it.. if they didn't they'd be in even worse shape.

To clear things up, I didn't mean to say that the japanese market should be blamed and put down because of the drop in MB quality, but that simply the effect of their entry threw MB off... which is clearly MB's fault... but none the less it happened.

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-Kevin