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  #76  
Old 11-07-2010, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by dropnosky View Post
Ok, I agree, that needs to be done. I haven't found any info on anyone doing it with a heated VO fuel system.

What I don't understand about your point of view is that with a real lack of data on what many people agree is the correct way to burn the thousands of types of VO by using it once the engine and fuel are up in temp in a diesel/VO hybrid configuration, how can you say you know it wont produce some positive emissions results?
You feel very comfortable telling everyone what you THINK, but that does not equal FACT.

Aha, now you have asked the $64,000 question.

#1
Every diesel fuel injection system on the planet is the result of *exhaustive* testing, and is backed up by tens of trillions of injection pump / ignition / combustion cycles.

#2
At no point, not once, ever, has anyone come across any failures that were not directly attributable to specific causes, such as the operator didn't change the lube oil or someone put gas in the tank or there was a manufacturing defect or someone over torqued something.... NOT ONCE was there an example of an unexpected failure DUE TO THE DIESEL FUEL when proper maintenance and operations regimes were in force.

#3
In addition, we have simply vast bodies of evidence as to what constitutes normal service wear and tear, you can go to Bosch and ask them what these rates will be in the Iraq desert in summer, in Murmansk in winter, at 10,000 feet elevation, AND THEY ARE NOT GUESSING.

#4
Diesel engines were, indeed, initially developed to run on vegetable oils (after coal dust was tried) but they moved over to distillate dino diesel for a reason, IT WAS AND STILL IS A SUPERIOR FUEL.

#5
I am English, which means that I grew up around people who grew up with fuel rationing, if you were on the approved list, policeman, doctor, you got a fuel allocation coupon, usually a gallon and a half a week... everyone else got NONE. What that meant was EVERYONE was running their vehicles, cars, motorcycles, trucks, on alternative fuels, everything from chicken **** to vegetable oil and even wood gas, even seaweed based oil, plus all these people had the advantage that their parents had first hand knowledge of when these fuels were all there was, there was no distillate.... my grandfather was one of 3 people in a small country village that used to MAKE D cell batteries in the fifties. Every single problem THEY had with veg oil as a fuel is exactly the same problem WE have, it kills engines, the transformation to dino distillate fuels and lubricants was what CAUSED the massive jump in vehicle reliability.

#6
These are all FACTS, in the true scientific sense, everyone can reproduce them at will, and the results always match the existing body of knowledge.

NOW

we get into what you said....

anecdotal claims about veg oil, "I have driven 50k miles on 100% veg in my car and had zero problems"....

I can say, truthfully, that I lived in asia during the communist emergency, and in africa during the swapo uprisings, and I never got shot, not even once.

I can also say that I have never once broken down in a mercedes, nor do I personally know anyone who has, a true statement, ergo, mercedes do not ever break down.

you see the problem?

Both are anecdotal, and fail at the very first hurdle when subjected to scientific analysis.

When VO proponents talk to engineers about how VO is so great, let me give you an analogy, of what we hear, and what feelings it creates in us.

If you go to the local PTA meeting at your kid's school, and the teacher tells you he always wears a condom when he is teaching your kids.

Then the teacher goes on to explain that it stands to reason, that the extra protection of the condom can do no harm to his teaching methods and to your kids education.

THAT is what engineers feel when you tell them about running VO in your vehicle.

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  #77  
Old 11-07-2010, 11:34 AM
JB3 JB3 is offline
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Originally Posted by W124 E300D View Post

When VO proponents talk to engineers about how VO is so great, let me give you an analogy, of what we hear, and what feelings it creates in us.

If you go to the local PTA meeting at your kid's school, and the teacher tells you he always wears a condom when he is teaching your kids.

Then the teacher goes on to explain that it stands to reason, that the extra protection of the condom can do no harm to his teaching methods and to your kids education.

THAT is what engineers feel when you tell them about running VO in your vehicle.
Well, you have successfully made me snort my beverage.

I understand where you are coming from, and honestly, in my capacity of working in shops here and there, there is also a lot of aggression back and forth about the VO thing as well in technician circles. Some guys hate it, some guys love it, some guys could care less.
I agree with a LOT of that, I hate seeing a guy come in, talk about how 'green' he is, and then I sit there scooping butter out of his fuel system, yet he believes his lack of power is transmission related. I HATE that, makes me want to punch them. Nothing green about needless abusing a vehicle and replacing components that would otherwise not be failing at that point.

At the same time, I have seen the occasional extremely clean, extremely high mileage diesel run on VO, without a shred of any problems! So when I see that, I say to myself, there MUST be something that these guys are doing right, because it is clearly working in their vehicles with no obvious adverse effects.
When I did it on my own car, I tried to follow what I identified as connecting factors in the well performing rigs. The vehicles were maintained, repaired when broken, and the owners were careful and disciplined with everything they did VO related. Everything was well designed, and well executed. Since then, I have not had any real issues that could not be attributed to me running out of fuel, or other issues with an old car.
That makes me believe that the secret is not so much that it can't be done, but that a huge percentage of vehicle owners do not take care of their vehicle, and the same percentage or more translates over to the VO situation, where sloppiness and lack of discipline results in issues.
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  #78  
Old 11-07-2010, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by dropnosky View Post
That makes me believe that the secret is not so much that it can't be done, but that a huge percentage of vehicle owners do not take care of their vehicle, and the same percentage or more translates over to the VO situation, where sloppiness and lack of discipline results in issues.
Bingo.

But VO still doesn't have the background dino diesel has.

Bio-diesel is another planet from VO.

Also, to me, VO means 100% VO, no dino, no bio, no additives of any kind.

THAT group is another group of people entirely, the fuel mixers, they cannot advovate one over another because they mix, so how would they possibly know, there is no "control" factor.
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  #79  
Old 11-07-2010, 12:23 PM
sjh sjh is offline
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Originally Posted by layback40 View Post
Well put Dr SJH,
What is your area of specialty?
You appear to have some post graduate knowledge behind you.

Way, way, way too much schooling!!

PhD chemical engineer. Worked at NASA, IBM, universities, Naval Research lab, etc.

Entrepreneur for almost 20m years.

Now a college professor.

It's just a shame what has happened to our culture. I'm afraid it will only get worse.

But I got a great car and seek to be obedient to God and do what I can.

Be well.
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  #80  
Old 11-07-2010, 12:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_SJH View Post

A funny thing has happened in the recent past. People have observed the potency of the scientific method. A very brief reminder...

1. Have a notion (hypothesis).
2. Test it empirically (experiment)
3. EVERYONE, EVERYWHERE must be able to repeat the results.
4. If ANY failure of the hypothesis is observed the theory does not rise to scientific truth.
You can strengthen 4: ...using ANY repeatable test...

A scientific reaction to all this might be "the chiseling down of the hypothesis" to such a fine point to get it right, that it no longer is really useful for extending the field of science.

I'm into a good book, What We Believe But Cannot Prove, John Brockman, 2006. Very mind expanding, and *top* minds speak in the book. Sometimes in very practical ways. Here's a quote:
"I believe in science. Unlike mathematical theorems, scientific results can't be proved. They can only be tested again and again until only a fool would refuse to believe them. I cannot prove that electrons exist, but I believe fervently in their existence. And if you don't believe in them, I have a [test:] high voltage cattle prod I'm willing to apply as an argument on their behalf. Electrons speak for themselves." -- Seth Lloyd
I've seen many people take an approach on these forums to want to "prove" WVO is OK, or harmful, or whatever. Will never happen. And nobody can ever prove otherwise. This is not math folks, this is science-in-the-making.

The goal is to make a hypothesis that is wide enough and generally accessible to most folk running a car on <fuel>, to hold true.

I believe, but cannot prove, that WVO is a suitable fuel for Mercedes Benz diesel engines. Under a certain set of conditions. Thousands of people have cattle prods waiting to show this is true. And I pay attention to their conditions. I am scientific, and I strive to repeat them.
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  #81  
Old 11-07-2010, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Dr_SJH View Post
It's just a shame what has happened to our culture. I'm afraid it will only get worse.
In the eighties, I was working in europe, and now and again we'd have to deal with american companies for parts etc, it was usually a pleasure.

I could order, for example, a genset, on a Monday evening our time, daytime there, and spend tuesday ripping out the old one, wednesday morning the replacement was sat on the dock by the boat and by wednesday night it was installed and running.

I would do this, or something like it, time and time and time again, and never once got let down by an american company.

My dad, who grew up here when the US army landed prior to D day, thought americans ability to get **** done, right, and pronto, was little short of miraculous.

Watching hurricane katrina (on the TV) I kept waiting for this "machine" to turn up and start working around 30 minutes later, and a day passed, and another day passed, and another day passed, and this was MAINLAND USA, not someplace foreign.

Now I talk to many american friends, and they tell me they can't even get things in the states that are made in the states (large bearings, hydraulic pumps, rams etc etc etc) faster than 14 days, sometimes 21, sometimes longer, and when it comes to getting things from abroad, it is usually faster and cheaper, to get someone local like me to go out and buy it, and ship it UPS, EVEN ASSUMING IT IS AVAILABLE in the states...

I was reading in the papers today that qualitative easing 2 is likely to kill the greenback as the global currency of note...

God knows how this happened?
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  #82  
Old 11-07-2010, 03:32 PM
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Wow. So what was the question? Will WVO inevitably damage your engine? Yes, until someone finds a way that it won't. But then again, driving at all shortens the life your engine and car. Its a question better put to MB or car manufacturers.

Could MB find a way to modfify their existing engines/fuel systems to burn WVO so it won't damage the engine? I have no doubt they could. If MB decided they wanted to make an engine and fuel system for a car that can burn WVO, Diesel , or any combination and run for 300,000 miles could they do it? I have no doubt they could. Problem is, MB didn't do that or if they did, they didn't tell us about it. Or maybe that explains why the 617 is so great?.

Since car companies haven't answered the question, people with very few resources and time attempt to. Some people think they've found a way to burn wvo to not hurt their engine and I bet some have. I personally am not sure I've found a way. But I haven't killed my engines yet. I probably won't be sure for another 20 years. But compression is good and they still run strong after 10,000 , 20,000 and 50,000 miles. People on grease forums have many more miles than that. I'm confident that a 50 to 75% blend in a single tank system with good oil and occasional purges will run for 100,000 miles. I would not be surprised to see more. I bet water injection helps a ton in cleaning it out. But i haven't added that system yet. The trick is monitoring VO contamination and cleaning it out before it causes problems. Also monitoring injectors and glow plugs for effectiveness.

So to answer the question , if you do your grease right , you may find you've driven 200,000 miles of which an avg of 60% of your fuel was vegetable oil and 40% of it was diesel or biodiesel (did you save your reciepts? ) and your engine still runs good and your car has 450,000 miles on it and much bigger problems caused by things other than WVO use.
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  #83  
Old 11-07-2010, 07:00 PM
sjh sjh is offline
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Good Points

I think BioPete makes some good points though I have a different perspective (perhaps) on why a company does or does not pursue a venture.

I know it is popular for some folks but I have a hard time with the conspiratorial view of history. I think the reasons are pretty straight-forward; they attempt to maximize their benefits and minimize their costs/risks.

Without commenting on why it has happened let's just accept that more and more businesses are short-term in their thinking and much less money is put into research and/or long-term investment.

I mean 50 years ago companies like GE, Kodak, IBM, AT&T, Dupont, etc had MAJOR research centers and engaged in work that benefited all of humanity for generations to come. Simple example: the internet and IT communication protocols are based upon fundamental work done at AT&T (Bell Labs, Western Electric, etc) that goes back to early telegraph technology.

I find it hard to believe that tens of thousands of successful entrepreneurs chose to not develop WVO businesses because they were diabolical or in collusion with some nefarious plot to hurt humanity. Could be, but I don't know.

This I do know. If one of my engineers/entrepreneurs came to me and said lets build this business I'd want to see the kind of data that 124_E300D discusses a heck of a lot more than I'd want to hear the sincere personal testimonies of the "true believers".

I also know this. If two, otherwise identical cars were for sale and one had a history of WVO and one did not that I would pay a premium for the non-WVO car. How much of a premium? I don't know. I haven't had to make the decision. Certainly 10%. Quite possibly more.
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  #84  
Old 11-07-2010, 07:28 PM
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Dr SJH,
I thought your way of writing was familiar. I am a Chem Eng as well, no PhD though, worked for Exxon Chemicals in the late 70's & Dow Chemical in the 80's including some time in the USA. I did some post grad studies under Wes Ekenfielder at Vanderbilt (sorry about the spelling) in the 80's.
Hope you are providing good guidance to those in your charge !!
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  #85  
Old 11-07-2010, 07:30 PM
sjh sjh is offline
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Originally Posted by W124 E300D View Post
In the eighties, I was working in europe, and now and again we'd have to deal with american companies for parts etc, it was usually a pleasure.

....

God knows how this happened?

A philosopher might argue that given any explanation that there is another, deeper one behind that, and that therefore any explanation is partial, at best.

But we pragmatists do what we can ...

My country, my culture, has lost its balls. We use to be confident for a reason. Now we have much less reason to be confident. This erosion has been strongly driven by internal components of this country who believe they are wiser than the accumulated experiences of 7,000 years of civilization.

The baby-boomers (my generation) has to be the biggest disappointment in the history of America. Our generation had a level of ease, comfort, affluence, health, etc that is unheard of outside of some tiny oil-rich nation. The way we responded to such privelge was by taking it for granted and staying in a state of perpetual adolescence.

People at this level of development tend to be condescending, belittling, self-absorbed and avoiding of as much responsibility as possible. This age group wants mom and dad to provide all their needs and simultaneously wants to degrade their parents and demonstrate their own superiority.

Here we have an entire generation with various levels of arrested development not having parents to take care of them so they expect the government to do so. Hard to believe that their fore-bearers sailed on tiny, unstable boats in the 17th and 18th centuries and came here (in some cases with fatality rates approaching 90%) but their great-great-...-grandchildren sure are not made out of the same stuff as they were.

So I sit here and watch a mighty culture RAPIDLY erode before my eyes. What took England the better part of a century to do America may accomplish within one generation. So sad.

Getting back to this thread - my generation and those that it has influenced believe it is more important to have the right attitude towards "green consciousness" than it is to pursue personal integrity, intestinal fortitude and self-reliance.

I mean I live right here in the San Francisco Bay Area and I'm surrounded by people who put great effort into their believes and our extremely critical of others but they can't perform the basic functions of maintaining a society. The infrastructure (I don't mean the roads and bridges) of civilization are rapidly deteriorating.

Everyone will say I am generalizing. I sure hope so. That's called inductive logic. You observe many individual events and make a general statement about what the group, on average, is doing.

And what we are doing here in this country is abusing the gifts that were given to us. Job well done!
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  #86  
Old 11-07-2010, 07:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Dr_SJH View Post
I mean I live right here in the San Francisco Bay Area and I'm surrounded by people who put great effort into their believes and our extremely critical of others but they can't perform the basic functions of maintaining a society. The infrastructure (I don't mean the roads and bridges) of civilization are rapidly deteriorating.

I feel that it is my duty to quote Mr Sagan at you

We’ve arranged a society based on science and technology, in which nobody understands anything about science and technology.

And this combustible mixture of ignorance and power, sooner or later, is going to blow up in our faces.

I mean, who is running the science and technology in a democracy if the people don’t know anything about it?


Edit, on topic because he says ... combustible mixture... lol
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  #87  
Old 11-07-2010, 07:42 PM
sjh sjh is offline
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Greetings

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Originally Posted by layback40 View Post
Dr SJH,
I thought your way of writing was familiar. I am a Chem Eng as well, no PhD though, worked for Exxon Chemicals in the late 70's & Dow Chemical in the 80's including some time in the USA. I did some post grad studies under Wes Ekenfielder at Vanderbilt (sorry about the spelling) in the 80's.
Hope you are providing good guidance to those in your charge !!
It took me a long time to find what I enjoyed and did well but I am a prototypical chemical engineer. Say what you will about us if you want something done we'll get it done.

I entered teaching due to health problems and am finally getting back to being entrepreneurial. I've got a couple business ventures in various phases of development. But I still teach about 100 students a year.

Unfortunately I literally flunk half of them. Many have never seriously encountered a discipline were there is a right or wrong answer. They are use to getting away with anything and then just BS-ing when caught.

After a few weeks with me they aren't quite so certain that their old approach will keep on working. Of course that is what I want. Why they have not received this message until they are 20 I do not know.

Anyway, thanks for the hello. I've got this 1990 300D I bought back in June and I'm tinkering away. It's great how many different people with different kill sets and experiences there are on this forum. And the level of knowledge and willingness to share is fantastic.

Be well.

TGD
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  #88  
Old 11-07-2010, 07:50 PM
sjh sjh is offline
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Originally Posted by W124 E300D View Post
I feel that it is my duty to quote Mr Sagan at you

We’ve arranged a society based on science and technology, in which nobody understands anything about science and technology.

And this combustible mixture of ignorance and power, sooner or later, is going to blow up in our faces.

I mean, who is running the science and technology in a democracy if the people don’t know anything about it?


Edit, on topic because he says ... combustible mixture... lol
I've never understood the allure of Carl Sagan. That he must be highly intelligent is a given. But his content that he disseminated to the general public always struck me as border-line dribble.

Now Jacob Bronowski, there was a man who conveyed the awe and majesty of a well developed rational mind.

The male children of the Greek aristocrats 2500 years ago studied algebra and geometry. Not for the plebeian purpose of utilitarian application but because they recognized that it was an excellent way to exercise the brain.

So just as we use weights and engage in resistance training to strengthen our muscles the rational disciplines due the same for the mind.
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  #89  
Old 11-07-2010, 08:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Dr_SJH View Post
I think BioPete makes some good points though I have a different perspective (perhaps) on why a company does or does not pursue a venture.

I know it is popular for some folks but I have a hard time with the conspiratorial view of history. I think the reasons are pretty straight-forward; they attempt to maximize their benefits and minimize their costs/risks.
I wasn't implying car companies don't make veg oil fueled engines because there is a conspiracy against veg oil fuels. I'm thinking same as you, no money in it because there vo is not readily available at the pumps and it would be a big pain in the ass to deal with all the red tape that would come with it. Imagine the warranty claims when someone puts some watery junk oil in their tank..

However now that you mention it , it does seem car's alternate purpose seems to be to consume as much petrol as possible. Otherwise, they would get way over 100 mpg by now and Electric vehicles would not have been crushed 20 years ago.
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  #90  
Old 11-07-2010, 09:28 PM
JB3 JB3 is offline
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I can't believe that 1 page earlier my balls were being busted for being "off topic" by discussing the pros and cons of VO, and here we are with what looks like a resume/career building seminar in the works, complete with name dropping, back slapping, and a smattering of philosophy all while commenting on the current state of man.
This is of course after playing "whos a doctor of what", and "where did I matriculate from".

Dr-SJH, sounds like you have a lot of explosive commentary and opinions better suited to the "open discussion" forum where you can enjoy a freewheeling debate over where you think the US culture is going. I personally don't agree with you at all, but this is not the place to argue about it.

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