ROTFLMAO. You know how they are. It's only wrong if you do it. That kind of sums up this whole debate nicely.

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What Would Rudolph Do?
1975 300D, 1975 240D, 1985 300SD, 1997 300D, 2005 E320 , 2006 Toyota Prius

bio & drop,
We were not name dropping or any thing like that. It was just a case of establishing each others academic credentials, Unlike some young bucks on here who will want to debate points that they have no technical expertise in, some of us chose to share information so that an appropriate level of credence can be placed in what we post.
You are welcome to provide some details of your formal Professional education.

Some of what has been posted on here is questionable from a basic chemical perspective. Just because some one has an education that includes Combustion theory & Kinetics, thats not a reason to start to character assassinate them.
Maybe some of the comments on teaching cut a little too close to the bone?

Its interesting that much of the WVO stuff is dominated by Hippies.
Those who are properly trained in appropriate disciplines are able to undertake proper experimentation & come to definite conclusions.

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Grumpy Old Diesel Owners Club group

I no longer question authority, I annoy authority. More effect, less effort....

1967 230-6 auto parts car. rust bucket.
1980 300D now parts car 800k miles
1984 300D 500k miles
1987 250td 160k miles English import
2001 jeep turbo diesel 130k miles
1998 jeep tdi ~ followed me home. Needs a turbo.
1968 Ford F750 truck. 6-354 diesel conversion.
Other toys ~J.D.,Cat & GM ~ mainly earth moving

Damn hippies. They're always screwing things up. They caused the wall street meltdown financial crisis and made my grandma lose everything she had in retirement. They got us into these wars in Iraq and Afghanistan which we couldn't afford. They caused our huge unemployment rate because they want everything for free. They caused global warming because they made it up.

If they would just go out and work for what they want like the great corporations do -- Wall Street banks, Haliburton, Blue cross blue shield -- instead of sitting on the curb smoking pot and making rock and roll music, all our jobs wouldn't have moved to China. Yeah. I wish we had less rock and roll music and more corporate executives with their high moral values. How great America could be with less hippies and more brilliant Wall Street Bank executives and Haliburton CEOs like Dick Cheney. Yeah. Bring on the Dicks.

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What Would Rudolph Do?
1975 300D, 1975 240D, 1985 300SD, 1997 300D, 2005 E320 , 2006 Toyota Prius

my objection was really to the rapidly rising ankle deep pomposity that suddenly started when it became a "who's academic credentials are longer" discussion.

Of course then we had to get into "my country has no balls" and other nonsense while congratulating ourselves on our perception of the "rapid deterioration of civilization". While we're at it though, lets delve into a little on the works of Carl Sagan and Jacob Bronowski.

Apparently, Im a "young buck" whos afraid of teachers and must now, in order to participate in a conversation with my betters, state my higher degree. This is all baloney in relation to the topic, but don't forget, now im also a hippie with no technical expertise in this.

What I really am is exhaustively bored with hearing about what schools you went to, and whose tweed coat with leather elbows has more chalk in it. Who cares? On the internet, we are all the same rank, credentials mean zip, everything is opinion, opinion based in fact can be backed up by links to evidence, posted or otherwise.

For example, I believe VO to be a potentially cleaner burning fuel for a diesel, my opinion is based on examples such as the EPA test I posted. A+B=C. I have yet to see any test data from this lab in the UK thats done lots of tests on VO, despite hearing a lot about it.

YOU posted a very interesting link earlier, but again, that kubota tractor was run on an unheated VO system. We need some tests on HEATED VO systems, and my opinions might change.

My backround comes by working on cube trucks, many of them diesel, and in diesel shops. Through that experience, ive seen plenty of VO nightmares, I probably hate hippies far more than you do, since Ive had to clean up their messes when they limp in with a destroyed vehicle, then expect to take a shower in the shop sink. However, I have also seen VO successes, and have enjoyed personal success with my own conversions, therefore I believe there is merit to the technology.

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This post brought to you by Carl's Jr.

Jeezus dropnosky!

There you go trying to get this thread back on topic again!

I was hoping if we keep it up God almighty might pop in for a visit, that would be cool.

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Cheers!
Scott McPhee

1987 300D

Somebody called?
Now, where were we?

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'70 F100 shortbed
'82 Diesel Westy
'83 Euro 300TD
Curtlo Viper
Yeti ARC
Surly long haul trucker

I made no comment on you or anyone being off topic.

These conversations have tended to meander long before I said anything.

A guy specifically asked about me and I answered.

Explosive comments --> OK, if you say so. I thought they had some good content, but hey, I'm biased.

I don't think I have impugned anyone's character in my comments & I have acknowledged good points that I thought others make.

"Lack of balls ..." --> make what you will of the comment. The emasculation of western man is (IMHO) tragic.

I tend to value more the perspectives of people with 10, 20, 30 or more years of experience in an area. We all may equal but our opinions and quality of our thoughts certainly aren't.

I looked into this forum because I was interested in getting involved in a WVO business. After what I read I might pursue bio-diesel but will not pursue WVO.

Having 20+ years experience as an entrepreneur and 30+ experience as an engineer I attempted to share the thought process of someone who's actually done this type of project, raised the capitol, made the "pitch" to a room full of people with 100's of millions of dollars on the table.

Hippies/non-hippies why would I want to get involved in that. 35 years ago I had my hair halfway down my back and I was as "far-out" as there was. But my life has continued changing and I'm much more interested in what I can do that is constructive (I'm not saying others aren't).

No one has replied to this simple comment --> 2 identical cars, one with & one without WVO use. Will the market equally value both cars? Ultimately that's the how the decision will be made (unless greater distortion by govt meddling comes-into-play). As a consumer I've decided that there is a penalty for WVO usage. You may not. After millions of us have "voted" by our actions in the market then we as a group will have expressed our values.

So "true believers" keep on doing what you prefer. I have no interest in meddling (unless you seek to impose your values on me). "Skeptics" (or whatever is the correct term): change always occur, there may well be a day that biomass, in whatever form, may become a significant energy source. For me, when it comes to autos, that day has not arrived.

We really don't need to yell at each other.

Electric cars? I remember the CitiCar (sp), drove one in '75. It did move me from place to place.

Problem was, as an Engineer in the mid-'80s, still interested in electric vehicles, I would seek out Engineers at SAE conferences etc. who were involved in electric vehicles.

There have always been problems with the limited range, the cost of batteries, battery charge cycles/life, etc., but my biggest issue with the technology at the time was that it was accepted that the electric vehicle would actually cause more emissions at the power station than an equivalent gas-powered car would at the tailpipe (including transmission losses from the generation point, transformer losses, charging losses etc.) and was therefore a step in the wrong direction. The comment that I always heard was that it could more easily be cleaned up at the powerplant with some type of "scrubbers" etc. Seems like that should be the first step.

Fast forward to last week, I was reading some comments from a similar discussion this year, and the same problem is still accepted by the industry to exist. No progress has been made to make electric power truly cleaner. All of the people who will buy electric vehicles, have no idea, just love being able to claim they're saving the planet.

Hybrids? Who really thinks that they're saving the planet by driving an Escalade with a green hybrid badge on the side?

And "carbon neutral", recycling? Dinosaurs are dead, don't really care what you do with their oil, any more than a corn stalk does. They're both carbon sources, both create carbon emissions in the air, carbon is neither destroyed nor created it simply changes bonds/forms. Whether the carbon emissions come from plants or animals really doesn't affect it once burned.

Personally, I am enjoying this discussion, have read every word and am amazed that it has not degraded substantially. I respect opinions as well as experience and education, remember that we learned a lot from people like Einstein and Tesla et al, and most of what they taught us was from their experience and experimentation, not their formal education. Their formal education should have helped lead them in the correct direction (but not always).

I think that WVO, VO, and Biodiesel are useful fuels. There are many ways to do it "wrong", which will ultimately increase consumption and emissions, lead to engine damage etc., but what someone else does to thier car is good for me, I can learn how to do it (or at least now not to) if I choose to do so in the future.

Will it lead to the demise of the engine? A simple question, and many correct answers depending again on the quality of fuel used plus many other factors. In the end however, the engine will eventually fail, and it might be worth the early failure to some. I agree with the opinion, and have stated myself that I will not consider a previously "converted" WVO/VO or even Bio car unless it is significantly less expensive than an equivalent pump-diesel burning car. Too many variables.

Similar to the point that all of life is leading to death, and is therefore the slow process of dying, ... using the car is slowly destroying it regardless of the fuel. Still, I'm not interested in smoking to speed up the process in life.

Even the discussion of culture is interesting, as Nero fiddles away.

I hope that this thread continues.

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Gone to the dark side

- Jeff

I enjoyed your comments (babymog). Personally I prefer discussions without personal attacks and this one has not been too bad. I've tried to share both typical businessmen and engineering perspectives; imperfectly I'm sure. It took me quite a while to learn the difference between what I thought was a good idea and how to build a successful business. I'm still learning.

I know that when I turn to a forum on diesel advice I prefer listening to someone who has done the work for 20 years and not someone who has some ideas. It's not always 100% certain but a good rule-of-thumb.

I have learned important information from this discussion and in my case it has helped me decide to not get involve in a potential WVO start-up in the Bay area.

Having tread this path before, and having more experience/training than most (but not all) I thought my perspectives would be useful.

So, given what I know today, I don't see low-level processed biomass as an attractive business venture for automobiles. I suspect numerous govt incentives will induce some to build these businesses. They may succeed as the railroads did in the 19th century in this country. They may fail (pretty much) as the "oil/gas from shale rock" did in the 80s. I don't know how to manage a business that is disconnected from market forces (govt induced) so I don't pursue them.

Again, I appreciate your comments and ask they we treat each other civilly.

Depends...

WVO for auto fuel, forget it.

WVO exclusively for home heating oil, I think that has serious commercial potential....

How bout them red sox?

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1983 240D 3.0T 4-speed manual, now sold

1989 Subaru GL Wagon 5-speed Touring Edition

Depends on what form of power plant you're talking. Its a common joke amongst operators of natural gas co-gen plants to ask why they don't get credit for cleaning the air that they use, as it comes out of the scrubber systems cleaner than it goes in. Granted it uses fossil fuel and therefore still adds carbon, which brings us to your other point...

The difference is this: oil, coal, natural gas, etc... They are all forms of carbon that are buried and effectively out of the ecosystem. For all the effect on the atmosphere, they could be on the moon - until we go dig them up anyway. With the vegetable oil, its a give and take process: the plant pulls carbon out of the atmosphere as it grows, and gives it off when burned. Closed loop, 1:1.

I'm not about to go claiming that the alarmists are 100% right and that the sky is falling. We don't have enough real scientific data to make that assumption (speaking of the scientific method that was being touted by our scholars earlier... the weakness of said method being that it cannot be used to prove anything, only to disprove...).

What we do know is exactly what I mentioned - we are taking huge amounts of carbon out of where it was buried under ground, and converting it to co2 and adding it to the atmosphere. That statement is 100% factual. Since we don't really know what long term effect this will have, wouldn't it be wise to try to find a way to avoid it, while lessening our dependence on a fuel source that has been costly in many other ways?

To the education question, I'm not an engineer, nor do I play one on TV. I'm in the business of translating the engineers designs into steel - which explains why I don't automatically respect anyone who says they are an engineer - I've been told too many times to build something with obvious flaws. Just like any business, you have to figure almost half the people in it are worse than average.

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'82 300SD - Somewhere over 220k - Becoming reliable...

...

Rocket ships to the moon

Mercedes diesels!!!

Radical decrease in communicable diseases

Almost doubling of life expectancy

Doubling, tripling, etc of food output

Ability to test the clarity of our thought

...

All that the scientific method can do is disprove???

Not in the world I live in!

Marvel:

I understand your description of the carbon cycle, but carbon in itself is not bad, it's what we and trees are made of (technically carbon-fiber?). Carbon in the air can be bad, if excessive. If we burn dino-fuel, we put CO2 in the air. If we burn plant oil, we put CO2 in the air. Either one is bad. If we burn dino-oil, and dispose of plant oil in other ways, whether recycle into useful cooking oil, heating oil, or other, doesn't seem to matter. The plants will still use the CO2, and whether we disturb dead dinos doesn't seem to impact the stability of our planet.

Don't misunderstand, I would prefer to use fusion or some other clean method, and any reduction in our dependency on imported oil is a good thing, as well as would be any reduction in burning to create electric, motive, and heating energy. I have spent much time over the past decade trying to find the missing piece to make this happen, but as my old CEO used to say: "You can't schedule a breakthrough". I just have never understood what difference it makes to the air quality or the earth in general (other than oil spills etc.) which kind of oil I burn in my car and don't see it as changing the carbon cycle.

DR:

I too feel that the WVO thing is a bit high-maintenance for me as an end-user, or so my limited research has indicated. I applaud those who do, whether hippies or Scientists. Biodiesel seems to do better in many ways, I have two neighbors (might be hippie/yuppie hybrids) who have been using Biodiesel it in multiple vehicles, blend their own, for some time. I am not motivated enough to make my own, and have heard many times that it can cause problems with tanks' otherwise dormant crud and with organics in fuel lines/seals so I don't buy commercial BIO. I do have an appetite for learning how I could, in case it ever becomes my fall-back position to actually discovering something big.

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Gone to the dark side

- Jeff

I know you're smart enough not to miss my point, so you're ignoring it. I didn't say it wasn't a valuable tool, but it functions by deductive reasoning. You whittle away the dead wood of incorrect answers until you arrive at a remainder that you cannot disprove. As our understanding of subjects increase, the truth becomes fairly self evident, but scientific method itself never PROVED anything.

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'82 300SD - Somewhere over 220k - Becoming reliable...