Probably not but they're not going to own up to that are they?!!!

__________________
1992 W201 190E 1.8 171,000 km - Daily driver
1981 W123 300D ~ 100,000 miles / 160,000 km - project car stripped to the bone
1965 Land Rover Series 2a Station Wagon CIS recovery therapy!
1961 Volvo PV544 Bare metal rat rod-ish thing

I'm here to chat about cars and to help others - I'm not here "to always be right" like an internet warrior



Don't leave that there - I'll take it to bits!

Interesting choice of a showcase car they have on the Fer-Tan page.

The Fer-Tan product you posted is of a rust converter/remover not a sealer. It would be the same as a phosphoric acid based converter. Naval Jelly, Jasco, POR's Metal Ready and their like. It uses a tannic acid instead of phosphoric.

__________________
“Whatever story you're telling, it will be more interesting if, at the end you add, "and then everything burst into flames.”
― Brian P. Cleary, You Oughta Know By Now

Is there a benefit or problem with tannic acid?

Sorry I really need a paint compositions and basic chemistry for dummies book.

Anyway they've got some epoxy primer in their range that looks fearsome

Ferpox Epoxy Primer 1 kg

__________________
1992 W201 190E 1.8 171,000 km - Daily driver
1981 W123 300D ~ 100,000 miles / 160,000 km - project car stripped to the bone
1965 Land Rover Series 2a Station Wagon CIS recovery therapy!
1961 Volvo PV544 Bare metal rat rod-ish thing

I'm here to chat about cars and to help others - I'm not here "to always be right" like an internet warrior



Don't leave that there - I'll take it to bits!

No problem with tannic acid other than a propensity to stain more than phosphoric and its storage life isn't as long. It's probably quite a bit less hazardous to handle and easier to manufacture.

__________________
“Whatever story you're telling, it will be more interesting if, at the end you add, "and then everything burst into flames.”
― Brian P. Cleary, You Oughta Know By Now

Checked that out. It seems to be an improved type of phosphoric acid rust converter. The way conventional converters work and how this product differs are described in the patent claims:

Patent US4293349 - Protective compositions for steel surfaces and the process for their preparation - Google Patents

I would think that it would be worth trying on rusty cars before overcoating with a product like POR15 or similar. POR make a rust converter too. It was called Metal Ready but is now called Prep and Ready and they tell me name will be changed again to Prep and ???? (memory fails me again )

I also found a UK site on Fertran:

How to use Fertan

There are many such products. I have heard you can even used a 1:4 solution of diluted vinegar, coca cola, ketchup and a host of other products. All likely work to some extent, but not for my cars!

Someone on the 107 forum recently mention some European products that were gel-type - perhaps better for vertical surfaces.

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Graham
85 300D,72 350SL, 98 E320, Outback 2.5

Thanks for that link to the 107 forum.

Here are some links to the products mentioned

(I've done my best to get English web pages this time!)

Deox

Large-scale Rust Remover | Order Deox-Gel In 1kg & 5ltr packs

Pelox RE

Can't find an English page - it is sold here

Rust Remover PELOX RE, | SIP-Scootershop.com

I can only find a pelox manufacturer that does pickling of stainless steels...

__________________
1992 W201 190E 1.8 171,000 km - Daily driver
1981 W123 300D ~ 100,000 miles / 160,000 km - project car stripped to the bone
1965 Land Rover Series 2a Station Wagon CIS recovery therapy!
1961 Volvo PV544 Bare metal rat rod-ish thing

I'm here to chat about cars and to help others - I'm not here "to always be right" like an internet warrior



Don't leave that there - I'll take it to bits!

korrosionsschutz-depot

Out of interest, I checked the company listed on the Pelox RE label.

They seem to be a retailer of all types of restoration products.Even POR15. But also Pelox and several other rust converters.

I used the Google Translator, but if you can read the German version, it may be more meaningful in some cases . There is a link to various products under rust-finder or in German here

Translated version of site

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Graham
85 300D,72 350SL, 98 E320, Outback 2.5

Mike D stated earlier:

A MDI is basically a Moisture Drying (Curing) Isocyanate (the spelling is nowhere close). Pretty much the same as POR and Zinga.

Hammerite seems to be more for external structures and stuff where the smoothness of the final finish is not critical. It'd probably be fine for any place which is not exposed to UV rays. It's kind of a colored "Super-glue", especially with it using a MEK solvent to carry it.

BayerMaterialScienceNAFTA.com

I would think it would be more brittle than either Zinga or the POR products.

For floor pans, boot decking, chassis work, etc, it should do fine. I don't think I'd use it any place where you had to merge exterior paint with it. MEK can do funny stuff to existing paint texture and adhesion.

Need to make a clarification here. MDI does not stand for moisture curing isocyante. MDI stands for Methylene Diphenyl Diisocyanate. It is the chemical structure of the basic isocyanate. It can be moisture cure or conventional.

Aromatic isocyanates, like MDI, work well for corrosion. Just make sure you do not expose the material to direct sunlight (don't use it as a topcoat). The aromatics break down in the presence of UV light.

I suspect that moisture cure products will be inferior to POR 15 because of cure issues. Moisture cure is not as efficient as the conventional solventborne cure.

Now the comments on the Hammerite are spot on. That is a commercial architectural product that may have serious compatibility issues with automotive coatings. Also, it is not what you are looking for.

The active ingredient in Hammerite, zinc phosphate, is commonly used on automobiles. It is the first step before the electrocoat goes on. The most common brand used is Bonderite. Here is an example of an iron phosphate treatment for cars:

Bonderite® 958

This is OEM applied only. It is not a stand alone coating. It works in conjunction with the electrocoat to prevent rust. You would not want to try it.

The German site is a how to site that sells products. One thing I couldn't find there was MSDS's. Usually I can figure out what they are doing from the MSDS. I wish my German wasn't so rusty.

Tannic acid? Not for auto applications. It will interfere with adhesion and cure of things like POR-15. Tannic acid may be used in a coating, but generally at additive levels.

If someone could find a MSDS for Pelox RE, I could give you an MSDS appraisal of what it is. The only clue I have is on the side of the picture was a shipping code--UN 1805. That means it contains significant amounts of phosphoric acid. This probably will be a cleaner, not a coating, similar to the Fertran mentioned earlier.

I looked at the FerTan patent. Since they used ASTM B117 as their primary test method, I would question the results. B117 has a bad habit of giving negatively correlated results, especially with air dry coatings, with the real world. I would want some real world testing to show effectiveness.

__________________
___________________________________________
2010 Toyota matrix

'93 500 SEL
A bad addiction. Takes all of my cash.

'12 Volvo S80 T6
Needed something that wasn't as hard to deal with as my bad addiction

'18 Mazda Miata
No more boring cars for everyday transport!

So, if any of you guys would care to translate JMK's "chemicalese" into a relatively simple form of language I'd be grateful!

As near as I can figure, "Hammerite OK, stick good, not for wheel toys, no use, bad monkey"

__________________
“Whatever story you're telling, it will be more interesting if, at the end you add, "and then everything burst into flames.”
― Brian P. Cleary, You Oughta Know By Now

I am puzzled by this statement.

According to the POR manufacturer, POR15 uses a moisture cure:

" POR-15 is cured and strengthened by exposure to moisture and will dry faster under extreme humidity, but moderate to dry atmospheric conditions are most desirable when applying this product,because extreme humidity may cause an immediate surface cure, trapping carbon dioxide gas below the surface."

taken from this link.

Pelox RE and Fertran are phosphoric acid based rust removers/converters. Not coatings. To my knowledge, they are not available in North America.

__________________
Graham
85 300D,72 350SL, 98 E320, Outback 2.5

Hi Stretch.
When I was in the Uk many years ago i used a lot of Hammerite.
Seems they still do a kind of POR type paint.

Hammerite Rust Cap Home


Saw one guy paint a Cresta PA all over with silver Hammerite with a paint roller. It was a 40 ft paint job.....

.

__________________
[http://languageandgrammar.com/2008/01/14/youve-got-problems-not-issues/ ]

"A liberal is someone who feels they owe a great debt to their fellow man, which debt he proposes to pay off with your money."

From what I could gather, there are two different products with similar names and uses. Hammerite in UK is now owned by Akzo-Nobel and the tradename is (or was) owned by ICI (British Chemical Co)

Hammerite Rust Cap is a US product with no apparent connection with the UK company. It is now owned by Masco Coprporation.

__________________
Graham
85 300D,72 350SL, 98 E320, Outback 2.5

Well I'd like to have seen the finish on the Cresta - well perhaps not!

__________________
1992 W201 190E 1.8 171,000 km - Daily driver
1981 W123 300D ~ 100,000 miles / 160,000 km - project car stripped to the bone
1965 Land Rover Series 2a Station Wagon CIS recovery therapy!
1961 Volvo PV544 Bare metal rat rod-ish thing

I'm here to chat about cars and to help others - I'm not here "to always be right" like an internet warrior



Don't leave that there - I'll take it to bits!

Thanks for clearing that up Graham - I was wondering why...

__________________
1992 W201 190E 1.8 171,000 km - Daily driver
1981 W123 300D ~ 100,000 miles / 160,000 km - project car stripped to the bone
1965 Land Rover Series 2a Station Wagon CIS recovery therapy!
1961 Volvo PV544 Bare metal rat rod-ish thing

I'm here to chat about cars and to help others - I'm not here "to always be right" like an internet warrior



Don't leave that there - I'll take it to bits!

Graham:

The terminology is quite confusing. Let me try to explain.

Conventional isocyanates (the reactive part of urethane paint) will cure in the presence of moisture. What they will do is what is called self condensing. It tends to be an incomplete cure that shows poor physical properties. That is why you have "urethane grade" solvents when you are preparing 2k urethanes to spray. Urethane grade means that all of the water has been chemically removed from the solvent so it does not negatively affect the cure of the isocyanate to form the urethane coating.

You notice how your quote from POR-15 states "moderate to dry conditions are most desirable when applying this product". They talk about trapping carbon dioxide, but the real reason is above. Self condensing of the isocyanate is very bad for the performance of conventional urethane coatings. POR-15 uses a conventional MDI isocyanate to form the finish.

Moisture cure urethanes have been designed to take advantage of the ability of this reaction with water to form a useful cure that develops good properties in the coating. Generally, moisture cure urethanes have inferior properties to their conventional counterparts. Technology is always advancing, and the only way to really tell is to test the products.

The product that used the exempt solvents will probably perform the closest to POR-15, since the basic chemistry is most similar. That is no guarantee, but it is the most likely.

Again, Hammerite is designed for architectural applications. It is not designed for automobile applications. Anyways, phosphate treatments are not designed as stand alone coatings. They are used to enhance the performance of other coatings. Used incorrectly, they will degrade performance--not improve it. There are also incompatibilities between a lot coatings and phosphate treatments like Hammerite.

On the Hammerite confusion: it is more from the financial side. ICI's (the once owner of Glidden) was bought out by Akzo Nobel in 2008. Just recently, PPG bought out the North American operations that Akzo Nobel acquired when they bought ICI. Because of the purchases, you will see US versions and European versions of the same product. Some will be labeled Akzo Nobel; some will be labled ICI. Eventually, you will probably see PPG on the products also.

Hammerite Rust Cap is Masco's (owns Behr) version of Krylon (Sherwin Williams) or Rust-Oleam (RPM). Mostly just consumer paints for refreshing the lawn furniture. The chemistry is nothing like POR-15. If the company markets any automotive coatings through the brand, it is usually a relabled product from another division.

__________________
___________________________________________
2010 Toyota matrix

'93 500 SEL
A bad addiction. Takes all of my cash.

'12 Volvo S80 T6
Needed something that wasn't as hard to deal with as my bad addiction

'18 Mazda Miata
No more boring cars for everyday transport!