I recently did an experiment with the injectors in my 87 300D. I had been battling a significant combustion knock at idle for over a year and just about trying everything. The only thing that temporarily killed my knock was bringing the car down to a lower elevation (over here I'm at 4500-5000 ft) or running the car on Diesel Purge. Twice I inspected and balanced my injectors to no avail.

Recently I was also rebuilding the injectors in my two W123 diesels and I noticed the nozzles used in those engines are different from the ones used in the OM60x engines. The OM616/617 engines use Bosch 240/ nozzles that have a crosshole on the side of the tip of the pintle and an exit hole on the tip of the pintle. The OM602/603 engines use Bosch 265 nozzles whose pintles have no holes and they just have a longer tip. From my testing I found the 240/ nozzles produce a very fine spray while the 265 nozzles spray more like a garden hose with a thumb placed over the opening and I tested both used and new 265 nozzles. So I decided to use the 240/ nozzles even though they are not the right part for this vehicle, but I'm quite pleased with how the car runs now. The combustion noise at idle has been noticably subdued and it's a lot more steady and consistent. The car has about the same acceleration as before. The only possible downside that I noticed is that during deceleration just before the engine reaches idle speed the diesel clattering now comes and goes but I think I'm hearing it less as I drive the car more and it's possible it was caused by carbon buildup which may be getting cleaned out.

My question is, why did MB or Bosch get rid of the crossholes while designing the 265 nozzles? IMO they are essential for producing that fine spray that the 240/ nozzles have.

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2004 VW Jetta TDI (manual)

Past MB's: '96 E300D, '83 240D, '82 300D, '87 300D, '87 420SEL

Having rebuilt MANY injectors for people, I've seen this same thing. The 265 in the later 602/603 engines has a long pintle that is similar to the older diesel nozzles and to the later VW ones.

Two things, the 265 has a different flow rating than the 240/ and the 603 has a different pre-chamber dispurser. Their "theory" is that don't want "too fine" a mist as it negates what the dispurser does, so the more concentrated flow from the 265 is intended to be directed to the dispurser ball and atomize from the collision. If you look at charts of "proper" spray from an IDI injector, it's not very atomized. The pre-chamber ball is supposed to do that.

The reason is probably because the pre-chamber lasts a LOT longer than the nozzles and cost about the same between the engines. Making nozzles like the 265 is cheaper than making the 240/ with the precise center and cross holes. So they can make them cheaper and save a LOT on mfg costs and pass off the fine atomization to a long-term part of the engine.

Anyway, like you, I've tried the 240/ in not only the 265 applications but also the 193, both to positive effect.

Only problem might be that the flow is different and could cause some issues down the road (but it seems some of that could be mitigated for with pump adjustments and so forth) and finding the 240/ nozzles is impossible as the only thing currently available in NEW is India made.

Soooooo....., just when you find something that works great for SVO/WVO and atomizes well in 603's and VW's with better mileage and slightly increased power, then Bosch slams the door shut. Assh*les!

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1984 300D Turbo - 4-speed manual conversion, mid-level resto

1983 300D - parts car

1979 300TD Auto - Parts car.

1985 300D Auto - Wrecked/Parts.


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"If you don't know where you are going, any road will get you there". Lewis Carrol

Your explanation of why the 265 nozzle can be crappier and still work well makes sense, though I don't think an injector can atomize fuel too well (literally). I would say the more atomization from the injector the better regardless of what the dispurser ball in the prechamber expects.

Which vehicles use the 193 nozzle?

About the build quality, I would agree that the Indian 265 nozzles are crap. I ordered 6 of them the other day and the spray pattern was worse than from my German nozzles with over 150K miles on them and the worst thing was the huge variation in friction between the pintle and the nozzle. Some pintles were stuck inside so tight I had to slam the tips of the nozzles on the table to get them out. I returned this junk the next day. BUT, I was quite pleased with the quality of new 240/ nozzles, even the indian ones. They were clearly built to higher standards and most sprayed properly. Of the 9 that I tested, only 2 were less than satisfactory. I have only tested them new though, and I have no results as to how long they last. What kind of problems did you have with the indian nozzles, particularly with the 240/ ones?

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2004 VW Jetta TDI (manual)

Past MB's: '96 E300D, '83 240D, '82 300D, '87 300D, '87 420SEL

Agree.

Have had really bad luck with them keeping their pop-pressure and pattern after just a few K miles. The pressure is likely due to un-even seating that is lapped-in under load conditions in a few hundred miles. They might keep their pressure after a second shimming a few K miles after new, but the spray is hard to get around. The German ones were so precisely pre-lapped that they held their adjustment for 150K AND sprayed a perfect pattern. The good old days (when s**t just worked.)

They "might" be making them better now that they've had howls of complaints too.

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1984 300D Turbo - 4-speed manual conversion, mid-level resto

1983 300D - parts car

1979 300TD Auto - Parts car.

1985 300D Auto - Wrecked/Parts.


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"If you don't know where you are going, any road will get you there". Lewis Carrol

Hi!
193 and 273 nozzle Are used VW diesel.

I use 161 on my 190D 2.2

So gentlemen, which IDI nozzles would flow more fuel to the 617.951/952 engine? I don't care where they come from as far as which vehicle. I need a bigger orifice so I can send more fuel to my intercooled engine. I do want atomization and so if I can get a bigger nozzle I would also consider shimming the injectors for a higher pop pressure. I'd rather research this route first before turning up the pump...

Does anyone know where the bigger nozzles are?

Jim
'82 300SD

Would also like to know the same for the 603 engine, as I need new injectors as well.

Where is one to go to make sure they can get quality injectors replaced/rebuilt that will last longer than a few thousand miles?

__________________
Mercedes Fleet:
2004 CL600 Designo Espresso SPORT
2004 S600 Designo Espresso SPORT/Lorinser Pkg.
1999 S320
1988 300TE
1972 280SEL 4.5
Diesel Fleet:
2014 GL350 Blutec
1987 300SDL Blk/Blk 4 place seating #18 head
1987 300SDL Smk Slv/Burgangy #17 head
1986 300SDL Blk Pearl/Palomino #14 head w/ 280K
1984 Lincoln Mark VII Fact BMW Turbo Diesel

I'd be willing to bet there are more than a few people interested. I'll also bet if the source comes out, it'll be out here first.

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'83 240D with 617.952 and 2.88
'01 VW Beetle TDI
'05 Jeep Liberty CRD
'89 Toyota 4x4, needs 2L-T
'78 280Z with L28ET - 12.86@110
Oil Burner Kartel #35

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b1...oD/bioclip.jpg

Hi !
Please if some one can make contact to this guys.
http://www.coloradobiodiesel.com/injectors/index.html
Look to me are very good on Diesel Injectors.
Once I send mail to them and get reply are very busy.
There are talking : NA31 - NA33 and NA38 Nozzle.
I dont have idea what mean and what kind Nozzle are.

Regards

I am still a novice at servcing my 1982 300sd. I admit that I don't know as much as most of you, but at 260k miles I am interested in having my injectors rebuilt and balanced. I am assuming from these posts that I need to make sure I use German injector nozzles and balance to +/- 5bar.

Is there any other important info? How about a part number for the best nozzle? Also who is the most reliable rebuilder you have used who will assure German nozzle and correct balancing?

Thanks.

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1982 300SD Light Blue
2002 Honda Accord SE
1974 Toro Wheel Horse Tractor
2000 Toyota Tundra Pickup

Willrev, you won't get any new German nozzles anywhere, unless you're very lucky and find an old stock. The new Indian 240/ nozzles are not too bad. Like I said 1 or 2 out of 10 may be bad, but the quality seems to be improving. I didn't have a good impression of the local diesel shops, so I purchased my own tester and learned how to balance and rebuild injectors. It's really not difficult, though it may be tedious and time consuming. You can try your local diesel shop or TomJ if you don't feel comfortable doing it yourself.

__________________
2004 VW Jetta TDI (manual)

Past MB's: '96 E300D, '83 240D, '82 300D, '87 300D, '87 420SEL

okay- sorry been a very busy week as I changed jobs... can you point me in the right direction or post a photo fo the one's I ought to be looking for and the one's I dont want to buy? I could get ahold of perhaps 20 injector a week with as many w123,w116 and w126 with the 616's and 617's here. Are they in 616's only? Nothing in non turbo 617's?
William

It's hard to tell without taking the injector bodies apart if they are German or India. I'm even finding India nozzles in junkyard injectors now. If the tips sticking out of the nozzles are not too long and look "blunt" and they have a very small hole in the middle, then at least they're in the ballpark (they're likely 240 nozzles, but without taking the nozzles out, you can't tell if they're German or not.)

If the bodies say 135bar on them, that at least they're likely to be the right nozzles.

Also, 300D non and 240's with 'rebuilt' injectors will stand a good chance of having the 240 nozzle too.

__________________
1984 300D Turbo - 4-speed manual conversion, mid-level resto

1983 300D - parts car

1979 300TD Auto - Parts car.

1985 300D Auto - Wrecked/Parts.


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"If you don't know where you are going, any road will get you there". Lewis Carrol

Back from the dead. Anyone doing this -- using 617 turbo nozzles in a 602 or 603 engine? I'm thinking of trying it out. The OP says better mpg and quieter engine. Anyone have any long term experience with this?

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What Would Rudolph Do?
1975 300D, 1975 240D, 1985 300SD, 1997 300D, 2005 E320 , 2006 Toyota Prius

My comment on the older 240 nozzles is that over time; I am assuming with out perodic Diesel Purges the get restricted and even plug up.

(Ever one of what looked like the original Injector on my car had the central and cross holes plugge solid with Carbon; 198K on it.)

In the FSM after a certain dat the show that the Central Hole was increaded in diameter. Could that have been to reduce the chance of them becoming plugged?

Another issue might be the quality of the made in India 240 Nozzles.

This leaves the German mad Monark and made in Italy Bosio Nozzles as the 2 quality choices.

However, the Monark Nozzles have the same Facet on them that takes the place of the central and cross drilled holes in the 240 nozzles. But, that does not mean that the spray patterns are the same as the Bosch Nozzles with the Facted Pintels.

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84 300D, 82 Volvo 244Gl Diesel