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  #46  
Old 10-19-2005, 01:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 240diowa
I always hear about how the diesel mercedes engines run a very long time but I have yet to find any Mercedes diesel for sale on cars.com or e-bay or the local paper that have 300K miles with out the motor being rebuilt. My guess is that with proper oil changes etc the expected life of a 240 or 300D motor is around 250K miles. A chevy 350 can do the same....
I don't believe there is a difference between the engines made for the german market and the ones for export. I used to run my own taxi and limousine business before I came to the US. Guess why 90% of german taxis are Mercedes-Diesel? Yes, you're right! There is NO OTHER CAR on this planet that could outlast a Mercedes Diesel. And no, I'm not getting paid for this statement. I drove my cars without rebuilding the engine on average up to 1,000,000 km which equals approx. 600,000 miles. These cars were still running when I sold them. I did one single experiment and bought a Renault Diesel. After 230,000 km (not even 150,000miles) the engine blew. Never again anything else but MB Diesel! (I should get paid for that, shouldn't I?)

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  #47  
Old 10-20-2005, 05:07 PM
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To prove my point

Here is a car that has been owned for years by the owners and looks like it ihas been well cared for. As expected the engine had to be replaced before 200K miles. Check this car out on E-bay

Item 4582613017

1975 300D, 171805 miles My parents have owned this car since 1984 and have kept it in beautiful shape. This is a 5 cylinder diesel and is good on fuel. There is no body rust, except for a little just under the trunk lid. The engine has been rebuilt and runs great.

This is basically the rule and not the exception if you do objective research
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  #48  
Old 10-20-2005, 05:17 PM
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So that means in a nutshell, all of us with high mileage OM 616/617 are lying here.
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  #49  
Old 10-20-2005, 05:46 PM
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i want to know how whomever got 500k out of an air-cooled vw engine...

seriously, keep your chevies, pontiacs and buicks.

i love my beetle to pieces(heh heh... restoration joke...get it...GET IT?! ) but even john muir will tell you flat out. a rebuild every 125k. at least its cheap...

1998 neon 2.0dohc v. 2000 chevalier 2.2 v. 1979 240d 2.4...

neon- head gasket failure, sunroof failure, drivers window failure(break in-- glass bits broke the regulator..)

chevalier- complete cooling system failure at 70k, resulted in a complete engine rebuild. its a cousins car, i know she was only halfway through paying for it when it needed the engine rebuilt...

1979 240d-- no engine troubles at 144k, pretty bad blow-by though. im going to field a guess that the mileage isnt accurate for this to be so...

they all have advantages and disadantages. but i honestly cant tell you the advantages of owning an antique 2.2 gm engine. it isnt overly efficient, overly powerful or overly long lived. the neon is aging far better than the chevy. the benz better than both.

my original response was going to be...

"takes the bait an leaves the hook" but i couldnt resist..
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  #50  
Old 10-20-2005, 05:59 PM
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I'm not saying that those who own high mileage MB's are lying it is just that they are in the minority when they think they are in the majority. I have been looking for used MB's for a long time and have owner three of them. Finding a used MB with 300K miles without an engine rebuild is rare. The perception is much larger than the reality.
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  #51  
Old 10-20-2005, 06:01 PM
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My first 84 (before I totaled it) had 438,000 on it and needed some oil leaks fixed (namely the rear main seal). Didn't do it and totaled it at 438K. Engine still started perfectly. It was well maintained and I owned since it had 81K on it.

I imagine you could get similar mileage from newer gassers ie the Nissan VQ series engines. Provided of course you followed regular and proper maintainence.

BTW the parts for our 617's are generally less expensive than any Japenese engine.

Just because you found an exception to the rule (low mileage MB diesel needing rebuilding) doesn't dispprove the rule. Generally speaking these engines can run over 500,000 without a rebuild (provided they have proper maintenance).

If you open most any trucking magazine, the average late model OTR diesel truck engine is good for 750,000 to 1,000,000 miles. (OTR = over the road, highway miles).
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  #52  
Old 10-20-2005, 06:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 240diowa
Here is a car that has been owned for years by the owners and looks like it ihas been well cared for. As expected the engine had to be replaced before 200K miles. Check this car out on E-bay

Item 4582613017

1975 300D, 171805 miles My parents have owned this car since 1984 and have kept it in beautiful shape. This is a 5 cylinder diesel and is good on fuel. There is no body rust, except for a little just under the trunk lid. The engine has been rebuilt and runs great.

This is basically the rule and not the exception if you do objective research
WHY was the engine rebuilt? That's the question. Alot of people who grew up in the 50's/60's just take that because an engine has approaching 200K miles that is is "time for a rebuild" on the basis of mileage because they grew up with engines that were lucky to go 100K miles without a rebuild. Did that cars original engine really need a rebuild? Look at all the guys here who DO have an original engine going strong after 200K, 300K+ miles. All it takes is routine care and maintenance.

Also, remember that the architecture for these engines was laid down WAY back in the day when gas engines were rebuilt several times throughout the life of the car. You can trace the basic engine back to the 190D (earlier?) MB just stroked, bored, and added a cylinder over the years to get to the 300D.
Imagine this: having a car in 1971 that got over 30mpg (back when diesel was cheaper as well) and would easily go for decades to come even with the oil technology back then. That's what my 220D is. Compared to a modern car it is slow, but compared to cars of 1971 it sure looks good.
Want to compare a 40+ year old engine design to a modern engine? Fine! So, you say our engines aren't anything special? Well, engineers have had 40 years to work on it, so I hope they have improved other engines! How about compare a modern computer to a 40 year old computer and see how well that holds up? To say that there is even a basis for comparison of a 40 year old piece of technology to modern stuff is saying something. The fact that our 40 year old technology still at least holds its own should be proof in and of itself that it IS a solid engine.
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  #53  
Old 10-20-2005, 06:19 PM
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One good point,

Many of the cars you are looking at- you're assuming the speedometer was working correctly. W123's are really bad about the odometers slipping. Amazing how many 100,000 mile cars are out there which seem like the engines have 400,000 miles!
W123's pretty hard to beat on the used price/repair etc.. The parts availability from interior, rubber, trim etc.. Mercedes is the best of anything I've worked on. I know when they get 30 years old, the parts on collectible american stuff improves.

Diesels are an addiction. Just look at the price of a 99E320 vs the 99E300 t-d?

Michael
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  #54  
Old 10-20-2005, 06:29 PM
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Thumbs up

I've seen three at the boneyards that were totaled that had nearly or well over 300K on the ticker... 309K on an '85 SD, 398K on an '84 SD, and an '83 with 282K. I know these were OE motors as the valve cover gasket had never been off for a valve adjustment (had OE part number still stamped on it) and leaked everywhere.

Those are just the ones I've hit before the gauge clusters have been removed.

If you think these motors just crap out at 250K... I better sell my SD because it has 228K now and the SDL soon after as it's at 213K!
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I'm not a doctor, but I'll have a look.

'85 300SD 245k
'87 300SDL 251k
'90 300SEL 326k

Six others from BMW, GM, and Ford.

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  #55  
Old 10-20-2005, 06:45 PM
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The OM 616 engine is used in light trucks and utility vehicle where it regularly sees over 4ton load, thats more that the engine or diffs' capacity and yet runs easily to over 300,000 miles, that too on dirty diesel and cheap Castrol single weight CRB 30 CD rated oils. When opened up, most don't need any low end jobs, only top end, some even just put new pistons and rings and are back on the road doing duty, same is the case with the 617.

The reason you see the low mileage 240D/300D in junkyards is due to owners sheer neglect and attitude rather than the shortcoming of the engine, just because it was junked doesn't necessarily mean the engine had died, maybe the owner got bored with it and didn't bother to sell it when he/she upgraded to a newer vehicle, I know many do just this as they see no other reason to keep running an older vehicle or bother selling it for peanuts.
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  #56  
Old 10-20-2005, 06:59 PM
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I frequent scrap yards all time. I pulled a gauge cluster to use in my car that had 360K on it. It's rare to see any with lower than 200K on them. What a crock. I notice our troll has long left, but happy I'm sure at all the rise he got.
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  #57  
Old 10-20-2005, 07:00 PM
Craig
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Maybe I'm a little slow, but I don't understand the point of this discussion.

Are we trying to determine how long the average 616/617 engine will run without a rebuild? If so, I doubt anyone here knows. I have no idea if more than 50% of the engines make it to 300K. I suspect many of the cars are taken out of service due to other reasons (accident, rust, transmission failure, etc) before the engine gets to 300K.

If we are trying to determine if a well maintained engine can be expected to reach 300K, I think we have plenty of examples here. There will be some variation between individual engines, but I think it's clear that these engines are capable of 300K without major service (I'm also not sure what someone on eBay means by an "engine rebuild").

Are we trying to determine if the average high mileage 616/617 for sale at any given time is capable of 300K? Who knows, I suspect the average "for sale" car is in far worse condition than the cars owned by the people here. Everyone who has spent time shopping for one of these cars knows how much junk is for sale.

I think the reality is that these cars are reaching an age where there are fewer "OK condition" daily drivers around. The cars that have been neglected are either dead or are complete beaters that are probably only good for parts. Most of the well maintained cars are not showing up every day on eBay or at the corner used car lot.

My 300D has just over 300K without any major engine service and is still running very strong. I drive it about 35K per year. It is also not for sale. I suspect that most owners of good high mileage diesels are no trying to sell them. If you are serious about finding a good older diesel, this is a good place to look.

My point is that good high mileage cars do exist and can be found with some patience and effort. I don't think anyone is claiming that each and every MB diesel runs 300K. Lack of maintenance can (and will) kill anything. The older these cars get, the more variation there will be in their condition. However, I am confident that is you gave me a new 616/617 engine today I could drive it well over 300K without major problems.

Good luck.
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  #58  
Old 10-20-2005, 07:44 PM
LarryBible
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240diowa,

You are dealing with anecdotal data, not statistical data. I would point you toward an issue of the Star magazine that was issued in early '96. In that issue was much data about high mileage MB's of all types including a feature story on a 240D that went over 1 million miles with only one engine rebuild.

If you are using ebay as your source of data, please keep in mind that the cars there run the gamut. Although a few nice cars are sold there, most of them are the junk that people are trying to get rid of. Nice, well cared for cars have buyers before they are ever put up for sale. Their friends and acquaintances call "dubs" on them before they go up for sale. That leaves, for the most part, only the rags being sold on ebay.

Are you having fun coming in here and making all these allegations just for the purpose of stirring things up?

Enjoy,
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  #59  
Old 10-20-2005, 08:03 PM
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rebuild

right now i am going to replace my tranny... i could probably suffer along
another year or two but i am going to change it...
my engine has 245k and it has some blow by... it will probably
go another 100 or 200k but i will probably rebuild it anyway..

thats what happens... we rebuild just becasue...if you rebuild early all
you have to do is put in rings and valve stem seals....
and a head gasket....
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  #60  
Old 10-20-2005, 08:36 PM
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Do I need to show my maintenence booklet, service by service, of what was done to the SDL, and when?

5K mile oil changes from break in(10W30 Castrol, I think), to 225K(then it was acquired by me). All documented by Smith Motor Sales of Haverhill Mass. And I've since serviced it religiously myself(and with the help and experience of others). I have zero blowby, and no reluctance to start in even the most severe sub-arctic conditions.

Plantman, a forum member, has one with around 330K miles. Turbodiesel, another forum member owned the car prior to him. He posted results of each of his servicings online at one time, I believe.

We have a 300SD parts car sitting on the lot with ~430K miles(fan went through radiator). My '84 300SD had books as good as my SDL. The SD was sold with 296K miles. I started driving it with 269K.

My dad personally drove an '84 300D 463K miles(he acquired it at ~200K miles). It blew an oil ring(he decided to retire it, instead of fix it). We still have the cluster to that car in the basement.

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