Longston
Thanks for noticing my absense. Gone for a few days. I heard of the ATF at fillups twenty years ago with a 220D. I'm using Redline now at slightly more than required levels on the intuition that more is better (which isn't always right). I like the idea of addition lubrication for the IP, but a little ATF or oil (or Redline, for that matter) to 20 gallons doesn't seem significant. Again that's intuition which is not so dependable with internal combustion engines.
In the biggest sense it interests me that "we" can design and manufacture something as complex as a MB desiel, but it remains an open question as to what happens inside them. Wouldn't you think there would be an absolute right or wrong answer?
Anyway, thanks for all the comments on this subject.

__________________
Dan Stadt
'85 300D turbo
'79 300SD
'73 220D

You see all the trouble you started?

Seriously though, you're right when you say, "Wouldn't you think there would be an absolute right or wrong answer?". There is, but people choose to believe what they want to believe despite ovewhelming evidence to the contrary.

There are three basic definitions of the word "opinion": 1. Belief, 2. Judgement, 3. Formal statement by an expert.

I have tried to be objective, done my homework, and, consequently, have found no logical use for ATF as a fuel additive. But despite all of my research on this, I'm not a certified tech. Personally, I'd like to hear from actual techs like BenzMac, M.B.Doc, and Steve Brotherton on this subject.

And, RT, I'm glad you are using Stanadyne Performance Formula, and have used RedLine in the past. But I don't know why you switched, because from what specs I have seen so far on the two products, Redline is a better overall product. And it is more readily available to the average consumer than Stanadyne.

Now, because RT made such a strong statement about using ATF the past, and added his comments about Stanadyne fuel additives, I did a search for that product on the internet, and came across one of their distributors, D.I.S. (Diesel Injection Service), of Lubbock, TX. When I spoke to a tech there, and told him the particulars of this thread, he told me that we'd all be surprised just how many people are using the straight ATF when changing their fuel filters! Then he said he should know, because they are the people bringing in their pumps and injectors for repair! His final comment to me was that he didn't understand why people insisted on using stuff in their fuel system that wasn't designed to be put there when there are so many excellent quality fuel additives available that are...

There are additives made for the intended purpose, and there are old wive's tales about how some simpler, cheaper "trick" will work just as well, so people just choose to ignore logic, fact, and common sense, and use intuition and hearsay as a basis for validating their choices.

The only way to be sure if any of these opinions are valid, is to start with three identical diesel engines, and run all of them with normal maintenance, and the first one with no fuel additives, the second one with "proper" diesel fuel additives designed as such, and a third run with ATF or the like, and with the fuel filter filled with ATF at every filter change. Then, see which engine fails first, tear down all three, and compare them.

Well, we know that's a utopian fantasy, so how do you know whether or not ATF is actually doing harm or good to your engines? I think the quote from North Coast Oil regarding ATF is clear:

"At elevated operating temperatures, ATF oxidizes, turns brown and takes on a smell like burnt toast. As heat destroys the fluid s lubricating qualities and friction characteristics, varnish begins to form on internal parts..."



[Edited by longston on 02-22-2001 at 02:04 PM]

__________________

Scott Longston
Northern California Wine Country...
"Turbos whistle, grapes wine..."

Gee Whiz...

I think this discussion is very argumentative without resolving much. I am going to try to be brief... but please excuse me if I don't succeed.

A) What problem are we trying to solve?
1. Reduce the smoke that comes out of our beloved diesel engines.

B) What do we know??
1. Some techs say they love ATF and have used it on their vehicles. I have used it in my fuel filter (2 times thus far)... no problem. People on this thread and forum have used it in other ways, no problem as well... a MB dealer service manager, my neighbor (a certified MB Tech), and our diesel forum moderator have all used it (whether it be in the tank OR the filter [whether it be filling the filter completely with it or just part of the way]) with great success.

2. Some techs, owners, and commercial drivers say they fear what will happen to your engine, pumps, etc. if we do add these items. They SPECULATE that the cars performance will go down the drain and as result reccomend that folks stay away from using it.

The reason I say speculate is because no one on this forum yet, as Dan mentioned, really knows what is going on!!! But like in engineering... when you are unsure about the behavior of something... you test it to find the answer. You still don't know what is going on... but you know how the item will perform when in use. I believe people who have used ATF for a number of years without having to change their pumps and what not have provided us with this information.

Now, something that I have heard going back and forth is this rule of thumb that 'If adding something produces more smoke that is intended to reduce smoke... it can't be a good thing '

Well, it is kind of like blowing dust out of a dirty pipe... when you first blow all you see is dark smoke...after blowing for a while... the pipe is pretty much clean and their is significantly 'less smoke' coming out of the pipe... same idea may apply with the ATF... it cleans the system... getting all the crud out and then it seems to run much smoother and cleaner than it did before. This is the observation.


C) Why use ATF in addition to Redline?

If you notice almost everyone who uses ATF on this forum ALSO uses REDLINE as a means to help treat their fuel such that it burns in a cleaner fashion. I personally believe in Redline, but don't believe it gets my system as clean when I prime the system with ATF or a related mixture their of.


D) What does this mean?

1. As Longston points out... my engine will be in the shop while his is running fine.

2. My engine will be running cleanER and smoothER, while "non-believers" are not at the same performance level.


I seriously don't think ATF will be blowing up anyone's motor. Why?? Because as Longston pointed out... it is something that someone started up a while ago and was just past on from shop to shop. But one quality of wise tales are TIME. And ATF has seemed to have pass that test. Time is the measuring stick. We may not understand it... but as those believers will tell you... it seems to work. What makes a good tech?? EXPERIENCE!!! They SEE what works... sometimes may not know why... but see that it does. Someone took the chance a while back and it seems like they are right.

It is for these reasons why I feel conclusion #2 is the more likely scenario. Now this is just my feeling. My opinion... my hypothesis... educated guess.

SB

p.s. Looks like I really did not succeed in being brief so please forgive me. I hope you enjoyed the read anyway.

Still appreciate the response even though (or because) it's moved into the philosophical (or methodological). I love the paradoxical and counter-intuitive. There is some sense in which the more we know the less we understand. My interest in this issue devives from my experience with our family's 10 123s. The one that sounds the best, is the slowest, is basically driven around town, has cost the least in repairs over the last two years is my daughter's 240D. It's the one that started burning up the last glow plug because (according to Bosch tech) of carbon build up. Real solution? Remove the pre chambers and clean or replace. Short fix? Newly redesigned fast glow plug kit. It's been fine for a year now while she putters around town. There is always that tension between what we know and what actually happens. Kind of the art and science of life.
Thanks again for taking a shot at an ongoing question.
I'm sure we'll talk more about other issues.

__________________
Dan Stadt
'85 300D turbo
'79 300SD
'73 220D

First, Dan, I'm glad your problem is pinpointed, and hopefully resolved.

Silverbullet, as far as being "argumentative", this is a forum, defined as a place for open discussion, and as such, is subject to a variance in opinion. That variance inevitably leads to exchanges of information from differing viewpoints. That process, whether peaceful and calm, or heated and unruly, is argument. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

I prefer to think of it as debate. An exchange of data that is somewhat influenced by opinion, and hopefully carried out in a civil manner, with due respect being given to the authority of all viewpoints presented.

As for not resolving anything, while I can't speak for anyone else, I have clearly resolved that ATF is designed and engineered to be used as a hydraulic fluid for use in automatic transmissions, and is not to be used as a fuel additive.

Believe me, if I saw any evidence that it was the correct thing to do, I'd be using it, but I don't, and I won't. If it really was the beneficial elixir that some people seem to think it is, why hasn't some slick marketing genius at one of the refineries that make it repackaged it as a diesel fuel supplement, or diesel fuel system cleaner/treatment? My simple answer? It isn't, they know it, and they would be sued and prosecuted for doing so.

Now, here's some points that I must disagree with in your last posting:

A)1. It is a part, but not all of what we want to achieve. With smoke there is soot. We also want to increase performance, fuel economy, and extend the overall life of the engine and fuel components (at least I do).

B)1. Insufficient data to come to end conclusion. Time is what will tell, and insufficient time has elapsed. Additionally, there is no hard evidence of "benefit". Only assumption and heresay. And did it ever occur to anyone that just changing the filter alone might produce the result that they assume is derived from using the ATF?

B)2. I don't consider the advice of the experts I spoke to in diesel mechanics, diesel injection systems, fuels, and transmission fluids to be speculation. To do so is to disregard their education, experience and abilities. And to call into question the thoroughness of my research, as well as my veracity.

I don't feel that you are really being objective in arriving at your conclusions. It seems that you want to believe that ATF is good for your engine and fuel system, despite hard evidence to the contrary. That's fine. I don't agree with you, and you have the right to believe whatever you want to. But I am entitled to believe that your logic is seriously flawed.

And your analogy of the "dirty pipe" misses the whole point. Your example would be accurate if you were using clean air to blow through the pipe, but you're blowing smoke through your pipe and then saying "Look at the great job I'm doing of cleaning out this pipe, see all of the dirt coming out". You are not seeing crud being removed by the ATF. It is the ATF itself that PRODUCES the smoke you see

C) And as regards the use of Redline fuel additive with ATF, how do you know which one is working if you use them together? If you do believe in Redline, why not call or email them to get the details on what their product does and how it does it? And ask their chemists if ATF provides any added benefit.

D)1. I did not say that. Please use exact and accurate quotes.

And your statement, "...one quality of wise tales are TIME...". Time is also one major quality of fish stories, old wive's tales, superstitions, etc. etc.

This isn't just argument for argument's sake. I don't need to be "right" or to "win", but I do need to be accurate. I feel a responsibility to do unbiased research, and obtain accurate data before I post my comments on any subject on this forum.

Why? Because I rely on this forum for information to help me make educated and informed decisions, and I feel a responsibility to provide the same kind of information to other people who read this and other threads I contribute to, both now, and in the future.

Here are some examples of previous threads on this website that address the issue of ATF as a fuel additive. Read them, and draw your own conclusions.

ATF in engine?

Diesel fuel additives - (Kerosene or ATF)

tranny fluid as a n injector cleaner

Add ATF to every other tank of diesel fuel, HUH????

Additives for Diesel Engines

Low sulfer requirements on Diesel fuel

[Edited by longston on 02-22-2001 at 06:17 PM]

__________________

Scott Longston
Northern California Wine Country...
"Turbos whistle, grapes wine..."

I figured I'd jump in on this.I live in upstate NY.I had the privelege of living next-door to a shop owned by one Heinz Stevens.Mr.Stevens worked for MB in Stuttgart in the 40's and 50's moved here and opened up a shop.I spent many hours there.His particular specialty was diesels.He was the guy the could open your hood,listen to the motor and tell you exactly what the problem was.At the time I owned a VW dasher diesel.He did some work on the car for me and adjusted the injection timing.He told me to dump a Qt. of ATF in the "tank" every "now & then".I asked him why.He said it was a good detergent and cleaned the injectors quite well.He mentioned nothing of the lubrication qualities.Certainly not a direct shot by putting it in the fuel filter.I have used it numerous times on all my VW's because if there is an ill(never was) effect I can rectify it.But my "baby"...I won't take the chance.I want to try the Redline.I have heard good things about this stuff.How much is a case from Mercedesshop? Anyone know?
I hav also heard of using an "ashless" 2 cycle oil in the tank for lubricating.I'll try that on my VW to see what happens. Joe S.

Longston,
I believe I have been quite objective in my analysis on this subject. I will not say that I have done as a complete job as you have done, because that would not be the truth.


"I don't consider the advice of the experts I spoke to in diesel mechanics, diesel injection systems, fuels, and transmission fluids to be speculation. To do so is to disregard their education, experience and abilities. And to call into question the thoroughness of my research, as well as my veracity."

Ask your EXPERTS (very strong characterization) if they have EVER worked on an engine that has had problems related to ATF usage? This is ESSENTIAL in saying that they KNOW ATF damages the engines longevity, fuel performance, etc. This seperates their comments from SPECULATION to FACT. I don't think this says they are not educated... the most educated person will admit they don't know it all. Many people proceed on GUT FEELING (based upon other info.), which is also speculation. It does say they MAY have not experienced ATF as a fuel additive.

"I don't feel that you are really being objective in arriving at your conclusions. It seems that you want to
believe that ATF is good for your engine and fuel system, despite hard evidence to the contrary. That's fine....But I am entitled to believe that your logic is seriously flawed."

"I feel a responsibility to do unbiased research, and obtain accurate data before I post my comments on any subject on this forum."

Well I don't feel you are being objective. For being someone who has done such a complete job of researching the subject it is amazing you have not mentioned one success story!! One war story of someone actually using it and having good results (or even no results). It seems you only seek out those who agree with your opinion. This is inherently biased. That is fine too. Because you are a great source of the others sides arguements, although not objective. I don't claim to have done quality research, and hopefully never claimed to. Perhaps I should keep my mouth shut "before I post my comments on any subject on this forum" But it is funny that the first service mgr. I called said he used it too for a number of years and not one of your sources have ever used it and all swear against it.

Given that, your comments and research have given me enough reason to question the accuracy of those war stories I was told. I will call Redline (they are based near my home town) and talk chemistry and fluid mechanics with them with regard to ATF and their products. I will also try to call the MB technical support line and see why they have never authorized owners to use additives in their fuels. Once I get this information... maybe I will have a better understanding of this subject.

Hopefully the war stories I and others have told will prompt you to second guess your "experts" and understand why these cars continue to run given their current reasoning.

From an objective standpoint, it is easy for us to say I am right because of XYZ vs. understanding and proving the others opinions or conclusions as being wrong.

I stand by my comments and thank everyone for the "debate". This will be my last post to this thread... although other threads may pop up debating the same thing. Thanks for passing on your sources on the topic Longston, I will read it over this weekend. Only time will tell who is right and who is wrong...

SB


When Socrates was about to die, Aristotle asked him what is the most important thing that you have learned during this lifetime. Socrates replied, "I know that I don't know."

Sorry if anyone has got the wrong impression here. My comments are never intended to be a personal attack against any individual, or group of members on this forum. Nor are they intended to be "carved in stone". Believe it or not, I try to remain open minded about everything, even something as subjective as the use of additives, antifreeze, and lubricants.

This isn't a contest to see who is right or wrong. And I'm not trying to represent myself as the all-knowing authority on all things. So, I would appreciate it if you, RT, and you, SB, would go back over the weekend at some point and look at what we have all said in this thread. I also will be reviewing everything as I post this reply. Just please don't think of me as an adversary.

You are right about one thing, I haven't made a major point of objectively listing success stories about the use of ATF as a fuel additive. I don't have any. And I don't think anyone else does either. I thought my point about a three-diesel-engine lab test was clear on why that was.

Despite that, during the process of my research, I did ask everyone I interviewed on the subject if they could see any benefit to using ATF as a fuel additive. And where ever and whenever I have heard or read a comment or details of such, I have posted it here for all to read.

I started out being open minded, albeit a little suspicious, made some phone calls and after my initial research, posted this:

"I really don't think burning a high concentration of that stuff could be good for the engine or the environment. I wouldn't do it. If anything, I might put some Redline mixed with diesel in the new filter to get a higher concentration of the additive to the injectors and pump.

I would suggest that if anyone uses ATF, or motor oil as a fuel additive, that it be added to the fuel tank prior to refueling in order to disperse more evenly and provide better all around lubrication to the top end, rings, fuel pump and injectors. Too much of anything isn't good for you or your car..."

Then I made several more phone calls: "...my local Mercedes Dealer, three Professional Heavy Truck diesel repair shops, and finally, a local fuels and lubricants dealer who supplies service stations and truck stops."

Well, no positive aspects there to report, so I went into the archives and looked for the posting Larry Bible had mentioned about MB training techs to use ATF when changing fuel filters. I posted what I had found. I think doing so was fair, and "unbiased".

So, it seemed like everyone responding to this thread at that point appreciated what I was saying even though some in favor of ATF, like our moderator TXBill, had responded with their positive experiences using ATF in fuel filters. Well, out of curiosity, if not respect, I had to dig deeper into this.

And even after posting the details of what happens to ATF under combustion, as supplied by North Coast Oil's website, I still had this to say: "Until I see hard evidence that something is either the right or the wrong thing to do for or to my car, I can only continue to ask questions, and get opinions of experts. It's a food of knowledge kind of thing for me. If I found out that what I considered to be a wacky concept actually turned out to be a top secret insider's formula to improve performance or longevity of my vehicle, I'd be evangelizing it to everyone. Of course, the opposite is also true."

Sounds pretty open minded to me. How about you?

Then, after RT added his first comments, I did some more homework on this subject. Those results were posted under the heading: "Welcome Back, Dan!" I could quote several things from that post, but why not go back and read it again for yourself?

At that point, I had acquired enough input from highly-credible sources relating to the negative aspects of using ATF as a fuel supplement to have made a final decision for myself.

I had, at that point spent many many hours on the phone, the internet, and on posting my conclusions on this very thread. But I wasn't done. I had already placed a call to Stanadyne after RT's original posting, and I finally had a call back from Simon Garner at Stanadyne just yesterday. He had some very interesting things to say. I have asked him to read this thread and to post his comments on it as a expert representing the only company that manufacturers both diesel injection systems AND fuel treatment/additives.

Now, despite the comments from RT about me fainting, here's a excerpt from a private email I sent to Joe Spencer on this subject that might give you a different viewpoint as to what I already knew about ATF, and some of it's uses.

"This whole ATF thing got started when there was only non-detergent oil available, and all oil filters were like the ones we use in our Mercedes' today. There were no spin on canister filters back then. Well, the old timers knew that ATF did have detergents in it, and that if they added a quart of ATF to engine oil just before they ran it for the last time before an oil & filter change, that the detergents in the ATF would help to clean the engine out.

Well, what works in the crankcase had to work in the combustion chamber, so let's add some to the fuel to "lubricate and clean the top end"! From there, it seemed to some logical to assume that more was better. After all, if a beer tastes good, and makes me feel relaxed, then a six-pack will do even better, right? Yeah, right.

Bottom line, times have changed, technology has produced highly specialized additives and performance products for use in our vehicles, and there is no reason to use "home remedies" anymore."

I think anyone can plainly see that personally, I have made up my mind on this subject. However, despite that being the case, I still want to know more about it, so if anyone has anything to share with us as regards ATF as a fuel additive, regardless of whether it was positive or negative, please do.

Who I really want to hear from is Simon Garner from Stanadyne, along with all of the techs who contribute to this forum on a regular basis.


[Edited by longston on 02-23-2001 at 07:11 PM]

__________________

Scott Longston
Northern California Wine Country...
"Turbos whistle, grapes wine..."

Personally, I love to argue. I leave the room when someone starts to take it personal. One of the nice things about the internet is it's hard to be personal (impossible in my opinion). I'm 57 years old, late to computers, and I don't think there is any such thing as personal that doesn't have a face to face component. That said, there still is civility and respect (self respect always precedes respect for others) in written communication. I personally don't sense any breech of that here on anyones part. I am particularly appreciative for the time spent, especially Longston's. I hope he gets his teeth into my other MB issues. As to where he received some criticism. The point that stuck in the back of my mind was early on where you said mine will be running while your's is in the shop. I thought that you were going to pay for that somewhere. That, you will agree, is a conclusion, but frankly to me the tone was light and the kind of thing I say in conversation all the time. I've told my kids many things that I personally hold dear and then said they are perfectly welcome to do what they want if they want to be wrong. I know they will do what they will and I don't want them to be wrong, nor do I really believe they are wrong for not going along with me. My face to face conversation is a mix of reason and levity because straight reason gets heavy. Most of all I appreciate your time getting real information and I agree with you, all of us will read what we read and go about our own business. I'll share with you when it works and I will also share with you when it blows up in my face.
Thanks to all, especially you guys who got involved in it.

__________________
Dan Stadt
'85 300D turbo
'79 300SD
'73 220D

I was told by a tech that these cars are not designed for freeways in north america but for the those found in Germany. He said that these cars need to be drive fast and to hard to burn off the carbon on the intake manifold. He explaind to me that next time i am driving on the highway to slip the car from drive to 3rd and let the rpms come 4000 rmps couple for about ten mins or so to burn off all that carbon. But what i did last week is I gave the car to my cousin, who is a police officer and he drove the car hard for an hour(we did get pulled over at 187kms..no ticket. It did helped, there was more power and less smoke comming from the tail end, but a small oil leak did show up....a hundred doller fix...more power and a hell of a ride i think it was well worth it.

The Italian-Tuneup comes to mind here. There's many ways you can clear the carbon out. You can...
A) Find a nice long 6-8% upgrade, and just floor it to downshift to 3rd gear, and let it run high RPMS for those few minutes, and if you do this at night, you may see glowing specks of carbon flying behind you coming out of the tailpipe.
B) Just flooring it to get on the freeway, or pull out into traffic on a busy highway until you reach your cruising speed (35-whatever m.p.h) works just as well.
C) I did this last week in the 300D, I found a nice long stretch of nearly empty highway, late at night, and just floored it until I couldn't go any faster. My smoke has been reduced greatly.
D) Use a diesel additive such as Redline, or PowerService.
E) Run some LubroMoly Diesel Purge through the injectors.
F) Use a full synthetic motor oil.

I've done all of the above, and everything runs great.
-Joe

__________________
'81 MB 300SD, '82 MB 300D Turbo (sold/RIP), '04 Lincoln Town Car Ultimate

Sooner or later every car falls apart, ours does it later!
-German Narrator in a MB Promotion Film about the then brand new W123.

I have been using Diesel fuel additives for as long as I can remeber. Used the Redline stuff until I was given a couple of bottles of BG 248 Diesel Fuel Catalyst bu my indie. While the Redline works, the BG 248 is AMAZING. I have been using 1 bottle per fillup for the past 2500 miles and I must say that im impressed.... with the first bottle I noted even greater power boosts, but also a much smoother delivery of that power. Soot has been dramatically reduced evven more so than with the Redline. Nearly ZERO visible soot.... give it a try if u can find it somewhere!

__________________
Nate

1995 E420
1992 BMW 525i
1984 300D Turbo sold
1993 Volvo 244 sold
1995 Volvo 944T R.I.P!


"The details are not details. They make the product."
-Charles Eames

www.cbs.nu

just a few thoughts...

I have been using atf in my and my customers cars for years, no problems ever resulted. either a quart in the tank or a full main filter of atf on filter changes. the atf will actually notch the cetane level in the tank up a little when you use it on fillups. I mean, if these engines will run on cooking oil, what else, short of gasoline, piss and water wont they run on?

__________________


1980 500SE/AMG Euro
1981 500SEL Euro
1982 380SEL
1983 300TD
1983 500SEC/AMG Euro
1984 500SEC
1984 300TD Euro
1986 190E 2.3-16
1986 190E 2.3
1987 300D
1997 C36 AMG
2003 C320T 4matic

past: 1969 280SE 4.5 | 1978 240D | 1978 300D | 1981 300SD | 1981 300SD | 1982 300CD | 1983 300CD | 1983 300SD | 1983 380SEC | 1984 300D | 1984 300D | 1984 300TD | 1984 500SEL | 1984 300SD | 1985 300D | 1986 300E | 1986 560SEL | 1986 560SEL/Carat | 1987 560SEC | 1991 300D 2.5 | 2006 R350

JUst to weigh in with anecdotal evidence: my father ran a 74 240D for 24 yrs ----- when the fuel formula changed (mid 80's?) he was 500 miles away from home visiting my sister. On the way home, the car stopped several times, always restarting when cooled. He finally finished the trip on a flatbed (I'd have loved to see him & my mother crammed into the cab of a tow truck for a couple of hours). His mechanic told him to use 5 0z of ATF per 10 gal of fuel to supply the lubrication that had been taken out of the fuel -- to lube the IP. He also told my father about the chance of being cited by the feds, so my father chose to use Lubro Moly diesel hi-test most of the time instead. With extra lube added to the fuel, the IP never stopped again, & there were no repairs done (that my father can remember). With that as a guide, I ran an 86 Jetta diesel bought very used for 5 yrs, at least 100K (no odometer the whole time), using ATF most of the time, and Lucas injector cleaner & additive -- avail at truck stops in gals or in many auto parts stores in smaller bottles -- diesel rated -- whenever the engine started more slowly. Fast starting was always restored with one treatment. That engine still ran well when I sold it, no repairs or IP troubles. I am doing the same regimen with my 84 240D, 12K so far with no troubles except glow plug replacement.